Having A Rotten Life and Anger

Postby Leo Volont » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:55 am

By way of General Principle which I try to live by, while aware that I should be guarding against any personal Angry Behavior , is the notion that there is never any justification for acting Angry. This seems to be a necessary Thought to keep in mind while many in the Anger Management Community seem never to let up on the constant chorus that ‘anger is natural’, that ‘everyone gets angry’, and that sometimes ‘anger is helpful’. Now, when a person is in a situation in life where even a mild display of Anger would raise an Alarm such as “Look, He is still as Angry as Ever… I knew they should have Fired Him” , or, “He said he would change but, Look, he is still the same old ‘Hot Head’… Mother was right… I should have left Him.” Well, as in such cases, when Anger can very likely really screw up your Life, it is a Good Thing to ignore all the Apologists for ‘Natural Anger’, and those who claim that Anger can have its Benefits, and strictly resolve to have absolutely No Tolerance for Anger in one’s Behavior.

Now, that being said, I am fully aware that there are Things in Life that could provoke all but the calmest of persons to Anger. Usually just the normal interactions with Rude, Self Absorbed, Stupid People is enough to push the level of Frustrations and Social Stress to something of a breaking point. And, yes, while I still maintain completely that any outburst, even in the face of a thousand provocations, cannot be justified, still, one must concede the point that it is far easier to remain Calm and Peaceful if one is in a Calm and Peaceful setting.

Yes, of course, people often have almost no control over where they must go or who they must deal with, especially young people still in School, or who must work at the only Job where they could get hired. But there are still areas where we can exert our control.

For instance, in regards to Relationships –Anyone familiar with this Anger Management Forum realizes that a great percentage of the posts that come in are from people who are Angry in their Relationships, that is, totally optional Relationships that they chose to be in. Yes, of course, some Relationships could be totally beneficial, such as encouraging friendship with a very happy, steady kind of a person who seems thoughtful and considerate and who can be tolerant and patient with the kind of accidents and mishaps that can be expected in Life, that is, precisely the kind of person you could trust to Not Make Your Life Any Worse Than It Already Is. But is that the kind of Person we generally hook up with? But Wait! It is not always the Fault of the Other Person. Ask yourself whether or not if you were with even the Perfect Person, you would not encounter areas of Friction or Contention? Maybe Mr. or Miss Perfect insists on having a Life of his or her Own – a better or worse Job then you have, friends that you hate, opinions you disagree with, different standards for home cleanliness and personal hygiene, etc, etc etc. Indeed, sometimes it could be quite annoying to be living with even a Saint.

So it has become a reflex with me, that when somebody writes in and says “My Partner makes me Angry”, to respond, well, what’s stopping you from getting out of that Relationship. Yes, you have to Deal with the Things that You Cannot Possibly Avoid, but, these Troublesome Relationships are almost always optional. TV, Media, and Movies have most people conditioned to Expect to be in Relationships. Of course, there is the Sex Drive, and although the easiest solution for dealing with some pesky sex impulse is never more than an arms-length away, still people are Conditioned to find Partners, and often they look for them where they have very little choice. I wish that TV, Media, and the Movies would focus more on Happy and Independent Lives and stories of Friendship or Great Accomplishment, or at least portray their “Love Stories” realistically – the conflicts and arguments, and the steady Compromising of your Own Life Away to Nothing just to please the arbitrary wishes of another person, and even after all of That, Still most of these Love Relationships end in Breakup, Disappointment, or Silent Bitterness or Profound Boredom. But the Media gives us and endless supply of ‘Happy Endings’. It screws up our Perceptions. We tend to expect ‘Happy
Ending’ in Real Life. But, really, if you want to play the odds that are in your favor, you should avoid optional Relationships which will minimize your exposure to unnecessary grief and aggravation.
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#1

Postby laureat » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:29 am

we always look for logical reasons why someone is angry
it doesnt always have to be logical reasons

for example there are teenagers who have "perfect" parents but still they "hate" their parents

they may be perfect parents from logical point of view
like paying for everything they need
but some other responsibilities maybe have been missed

like taking the kids hand and walking him around showing him you are the father from primitive point of view, animal way of leading/parenting, which may not sound impressive from logical way of thinking but fulfills the other, tells them you are in charge, you are the alpha

they say i have paid for everything but still they dont love me (my wife, my kids, my friends)

is because your focus has only been on financial life, you never took their hand to walk them around showing them the support
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#2

Postby Leo Volont » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:16 am

laureat wrote:we always look for logical reasons why someone is angry
it doesnt always have to be logical reasons

for example there are teenagers who have "perfect" parents but still they "hate" their parents

they may be perfect parents from logical point of view
like paying for everything they need
but some other responsibilities maybe have been missed

like taking the kids hand and walking him around showing him you are the father from primitive point of view, animal way of leading/parenting, which may not sound impressive from logical way of thinking but fulfills the other, tells them you are in charge, you are the alpha

they say i have paid for everything but still they dont love me (my wife, my kids, my friends)

is because your focus has only been on financial life, you never took their hand to walk them around showing them the support


Dear Laureat,

It’s always so nice talking with you.

It seems you want Love and Appreciated from Adolescent Children. Yes, you and everybody else. But, you know, Children making the Passage into Adulthood really can’t be understood in any other terms than Pure Animal Impulse and Instinct. Kids are advancing toward the Age of Independence and Self-Sufficiency. Yes, I know that in this Modern Day and Age no 13 year old can be Independent and Self Sufficient, but that is what is so Purely Animal about it. There is a kind of Hormonal Bio-Chemical Urge to Independence, and it causes them to Stand Up against their Parents. Also, I believe there is, or must be a Corresponding Bio-Chemical Action in the Parents also – it manifests in the Urge to Kick the Kids Out! Yes, we have all the Social Norms with Families Realizing in an Advanced and Civilized Way that they should be Loving and Caring about one another, but at a basic level we are all still just Animals, and that Animal Drive pushes to get through. And Nowadays, with Civilization getting so much Weaker, well, the Animal Impulses will certainly jump in and take up the Slack.

And when you think about it, one can realize the Necessity of Turning out the Young, when seen from the Perspective of the Primitive Hunter-Gathering Man, which is how Homo Sapiens primarily Evolved. You see, Hunting-Gathering is perhaps the Least Effective Means of living off the Land – a Territory is “Over Populated” if there is more than about 3 Persons per every 10 Square Miles. So it is Obvious why Families have to divide out. As they used to say in the Old West, “There Ain’t Room in this Town for the Both of Us”.

The Mistake we make in Modern Culture, is to keep the Children at home after they begin reaching Sexual Maturity (Nature’s Way of telling Kids that they are Already Adults, as silly as that may sound). Children should then be Shipped off to Boarding Schools. Yes, the Children will still want to rebel and express their Independence, but they will be answered back by School Authorities who have no love in their hearts but plenty of authority to impose discipline and to force restraint and maintain control(at least they should…. Schools lose their Effectiveness if those in Authority are not allowed the Powers necessary to assure Student Compliance. Teaching by Goodness and Light is Great in Theory, but that kind of Philosophy Of Education gave us the Slacker Generation, along with a huge Drop Out Rate – not even the Children like being treated well, it seems.)

I can be so sure of myself about all of this because, well, this Problem with Teenagers is not just isolated to Dysfunctional Families, no, it Seems to be quite Universal. Keeping Children at home until it is time for College or Trade School, or their entry into the Ranks of Unskilled Labor, well, it Hasn’t Been Working, or not working particularly well, as Everybody seems to be Unhappy with it.

But I wouldn’t just push them out the Door – just like back then, a million years ago, it is a jungle out there”. So Society should Implement Something…perhaps in lieu of Trillion Dollar Weapons Systems we could set aside the necessary Resources for doing something Good for Humanity. Boarding Schools. Imagine how Glorious It Would Be – not having to deal with Teenage Kids!
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#3

Postby Roady » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:39 pm

laureat wrote:it doesnt always have to be logical reasons


I think there is always a logical reason for anger, but lot of people doesn't have the knowledge to find that logic.
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#4

Postby Leo Volont » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:33 pm

Roady wrote:
laureat wrote:it doesnt always have to be logical reasons


I think there is always a logical reason for anger, but lot of people doesn't have the knowledge to find that logic.



Dear Roady,

You know Anger is a complex human behavior that is tangled up in a plethora of personal emotional feelings, conditioned impulses and Social Constructs.... it isn't Geometry. Logic is Ordered. Real Life is a Mess.

The best that one can hope for is that by constant Attention to the Perceptible Dynamics of Anger, that we encounter in ourselves and in others, that we may develop a kind of a Working Intuition for Anger, in the same way that Old Experienced Cowboys get a 'feel' for the behavior of Horses and Cattle, or the way Old Circus or Zoo Employees seem to 'know' what to expect from the Animals in any given situation. But Explaining how they 'know' such things would probably be most difficult for them. the Explanations given by University Level Animal Behavior Experts, or Psychologists in regards to Human Beings, well, it is at best a Short-hand, or rough general Outline for what is 'really' going on. Which makes one wonder about who actually 'knows' more about Human Behavior... let's say an "Old Cop" or a young Psychologist. I would never underestimate the Power of Experience, in one who has a good level of Common Sense and True Discernment, over merely having acquired a full library of Known Good Generalizations, though I would not dismiss the importance of that either. it is Best to be both Well Learned and Very Experienced.
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#5

Postby Roady » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:56 am

Hi Leo,

To me anger is just an emotion. Not a behavior.
And every emotion is a reaction on something that has happened in life.
So I dare to say: anger has a reason, a cause.
Take away the cause and the anger will disappear.
At least, that was my experience with my anger-issue.

I don't like to blow up things more than necessary.
I keep it as easy as possible. Just like it is.
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#6

Postby Leo Volont » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:03 am

Roady wrote:Hi Leo,

To me anger is just an emotion. Not a behavior.
And every emotion is a reaction on something that has happened in life.
So I dare to say: anger has a reason, a cause.
Take away the cause and the anger will disappear.
At least, that was my experience with my anger-issue.

I don't like to blow up things more than necessary.
I keep it as easy as possible. Just like it is.


Roady,

If Anger were "just an emotion" then nobody would ever know if anybody else were Angry, isn't that so?

Where would the problem be? Nobody would get fired at Work because, while people might Feel Angry, their Behavior would never give them away -- they would never Cuss out the Boss, or commit an Angry Assault against another Co-Worker.

If Anger was just an Emotion, well, Couples would get along fine, that is, there would never be any loud shouting matches and Cussing Tirades, or Angry Spousal Abuse. If a spouse made one 'angry', that is, as just a pure 'feeling' , unpleasant as it might be, well, it would be as easy to handle as shoving the 'brussel sprouts to the side of the plate' if one found them objectionable.

so you see, Anger as an Emotion is NOT a problem. Nobody ever went to Jail for FEELING Angry. All the Trouble comes for Acting Angry.

So here at the Anger Management Page, while it is so quaint of us to sometimes discuss our feelings, our primary business is to Control and Manage Angry Behavior. Our Job Here would be quite Done if everyone could be able to limit their Anger to just having Unpleasant Feelings, while continuing to act in a Civil and Courteous Manner toward others.
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#7

Postby Roady » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:01 pm

Leo Volont wrote:[
If Anger were "just an emotion" then nobody would ever know if anybody else were Angry, isn't that so?


Of course anger is just an emotion.
And of course I know that people don't know how to express that anger in a good, self-controlled way.
Because of that lack of self-control, people make mistakes.

But that doesn't change the fact that anger is just an emotion. A reaction of something injustice that has happened.
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#8

Postby Leo Volont » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:05 am

Roady wrote:
Leo Volont wrote:[
If Anger were "just an emotion" then nobody would ever know if anybody else were Angry, isn't that so?


Of course anger is just an emotion.
And of course I know that people don't know how to express that anger in a good, self-controlled way.
Because of that lack of self-control, people make mistakes.

But that doesn't change the fact that anger is just an emotion. A reaction of something injustice that has happened.


Dear Roady,

They it "Anger" Management, not "Impulse" Management, or "Self Control" Management. "Anger" is the word they use for that "Impulse". Anger is the word they use for the Lack of Self Discipline. I am sure I am right about all of this. You see, I have thought a lot about it, but it seems you are just relying upon your understanding... the understanding you developed as a child and never really thought much about subsequently... which is a great problem for us all.

yes, the English Language uses the word "anger" to mean two distinct things -- it means HOSTILE EMOTION DRIVEN BEHAVIOR, and it is often used as you use to mean HATEFUL AND NEGATIVE EMOTION. I would really prefer that we drop the usage you use, as it is not necessary. We can start to say that "We got Angry (behavior) because we were full of HATE" ( which is better than saying "We got Angry because we got Angry", which of course, explains nothing). But people hate to use the word 'hate', but what else is it but HATE that can make people so Angry?

Oh, and I do wish you would come to understand that many people have hateful and bitter emotions without being Angry. Anger is PURELY a Behavioral Problem.

Maybe you should start your own Forum. You could call it "Hate Management". that would cover for all the people who don't actually have a Behavioral Problem with Anger, but simmer inside with Hatred, Contempt and Hostility. I actually don't find it much of a problem to simmer inside with hatred, contempt and hostility... considering the World we live in, what are we supposed to think and feel? But I insist upon good Behavior...
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#9

Postby osenych » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:05 am

Hi Leo,

A lot of unexpected thoughts for me in this post.

I do agree that in interpersonal relationships anger is almost never a good idea. And there is no doubt that a calm and peaceful setting will help you to stay calm and peaceful.

But what doesn't quite resonate with me is the idea of getting out of troublesome relationships. Let me explain what my thought process is. How does one know whether a relationship is optional or not? There is no arguing that no one should stay in a physically or mentally abusive relationship. But other than that, aren't you essentially advising people to quit the relationship the second someone gets angry and things go wrong? Shouldn't people try to work on themselves and work things out first?

I mean, with this piece of advice you can lead someone to believe that there is a "perfect" relationship waiting for them out there, so they should just quit the "imperfect" relationship they are in now and look for that perfect romance. Which doesn't seem realistic to me.

Maybe I misunderstood some of your reasoning, so I'm very curious to learn more about your logic behind this advice of quitting optional relationships.

Thanks, and have a great day,

Olga
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#10

Postby quietvoice » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:54 pm

Roady wrote:To me anger is just an emotion. Not a behavior.
And every emotion is a reaction on something that has happened in life.
So I dare to say: anger has a reason, a cause.
Take away the cause and the anger will disappear.

Is it the "something in life" that you see as the cause of emotions? Or might something else be the cause of emotions?
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#11

Postby Roady » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Leo Volont wrote:but it seems you are just relying upon your understanding... the understanding you developed as a child and never really thought much about subsequently...


I wonder why people are making assumptions all the time?
I haven't only thought about this issue, I struggled with anger myself for years. So yes, I do recognize some things.

but what else is it but HATE that can make people so Angry?


Rejection.
Rejection is the root cause of anger. And abandonment which lies very close to rejection.
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#12

Postby laureat » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:39 pm

What about dogs?
There are dog breeds who happen to be more protective, territorial, hunters than the other breed

The same is, some human are more egoistic than other, some are more jealous than other,

Dogs dont think logically critical about things, they simply follow their instincts

But still develope frustration, anger,
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#13

Postby Leo Volont » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:54 am

osenych wrote:Hi Leo,

A lot of unexpected thoughts for me in this post.

I do agree that in interpersonal relationships anger is almost never a good idea. And there is no doubt that a calm and peaceful setting will help you to stay calm and peaceful.

But what doesn't quite resonate with me is the idea of getting out of troublesome relationships. Let me explain what my thought process is. How does one know whether a relationship is optional or not? There is no arguing that no one should stay in a physically or mentally abusive relationship. But other than that, aren't you essentially advising people to quit the relationship the second someone gets angry and things go wrong? Shouldn't people try to work on themselves and work things out first?

I mean, with this piece of advice you can lead someone to believe that there is a "perfect" relationship waiting for them out there, so they should just quit the "imperfect" relationship they are in now and look for that perfect romance. Which doesn't seem realistic to me.

Maybe I misunderstood some of your reasoning, so I'm very curious to learn more about your logic behind this advice of quitting optional relationships.

Thanks, and have a great day,

Olga


Hi Olga,

Always so nice....

Your thoughts and reacts are exactly what can be expected. As I said, people are conditioned into thinking that Relationships are essentially "Good Things". But the 'tip off' there is that we always hear that Relationships need 'Work' and 'Commitment'. But, What For? What is the Benefit of being in a Relationship? What if after we Add it All Up, in the End, everyone comes out a Loser. For instance, isn’t it true that the Lives of Men are Compromised from having to give up so much of themselves to get along with Women, and Women have to give up so much of themselves (and their Time!) to Get along with Men. Everyone gets Angry. and when you look for the Purpose -- the 'why' of it all, well, it is only because people are doing what they think is Expected of Them. But what if the Expectation is outdated? What if Our Modern World does not Support the necessary under-pinnings that make Relationships viable?

Now, in Old Traditional Times when Men and Women had Separate but Symbiotic and Complementary Roles in Marriage and Society, then Relationships had some actually Utility. In short, Men Needed Women and Women Needed Men, because they could not do it all alone. Men did the heavy work, and cared for the Large Animals, or went to Work to support the Family. Women maintained the Household, Garden and became the Social Center of the Family. But Equality between the Sexes has eliminated the Need for each Other, especially Women’s Need for Men. Women don't NEED a 'Bread Winner', as in many cases nowadays, Women ARE the primary Bread Winners... and they probably can't help but to resent Men for being parasites and leeches… loafing around the house in their dirty underwear playing video games while the Woman has to go to Work. And even if the Man does contribute a Pay Check, well, most men expect women to do the Cooking and Cleaning, but of course this is Totally Unrealistic as the Women are Working Too, and the Men have as much opportunity to cook and clean as the Women. So it All creates Friction. So, why bother with it? they Can live with less friction by living separately.

So, no, I am not going in the direction of having people expect to find "Perfect Relationships". Indeed, I am thinking about the very opposite -- that All Relationships are inherently Flawed (in the context of this present Day and Age)... that all Relationships should be suspect and evaluated for their possible utility. People need to ask themselves what they Think the Relationship will ever provide for them, and to consider the real world likelihood of that ever happening. People seem to Want Something out of Relationships which Nobody, nowadays, seems to be getting. Instead everyone gets Stuck in these Dead End Relationships and then they are told by All the Experts that 'It Takes Work and Commitment". Again, for what? People need to ask themselves how it is in the least bit likely that Happiness can be derived in a Relationship, given the constraints and limitations of Modern Conditions and Attitudes between the Sexes.
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#14

Postby Leo Volont » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:19 am

Roady wrote:

Leo Volont wrote:but what else is it but HATE that can make people so Angry?


Rejection.
Rejection is the root cause of anger. And abandonment which lies very close to rejection.


Hi Roady,

Wow! Yes, that is a valid point, BUT, I never thought of it. In my whole life I have never gotten angry because I was rejected. yes, I have been rejected plenty of times, but I never had the Sense of Entitlement or the Idea that I had a Valid Claim on the person who Rejected me. So I would feel hurt and a bit demoralized, but I never got Angry about it.

I see Anger as Hostility and Aggression in the Service of Territoriality or Survival. One has to feel Territorial about what one is being Rejected by, BUT, until you are ACCEPTED, well, there is NOTHING to be Territorial about. Oh, well, I guess one can Feel Rejected by a Steady Girl Friend or Wife who decides to Reject one with a Break Up or a Divorce, as that would be to assort a sense of Territoriality over an Establish Relationship. but again, THAT also has happened to me, and I never got angry about it. And I USED TO BE quite Angry, but about different things and for different reasons. Apparently we have different Anger Styles.

but, I think you are on Thin Ice with your idea that Rejection and Abandonment are the Root Causes of Anger, as they couldn't be without being somehow Universal to all cases of anger, and, well, it's Not, or at least not in my experience.

Also, it brings to mind that there were these Horrible Studies made on animals... primates, I believe... who were taken away from their Mothers and observed for their behavior. For quite some time they pined for their Mothers and tried to seek them out, quite desperately, but then they would reach a level of Morbid Acceptance and simply closed in on themselves and became unsocial animals -- if they were Human we would have called it a state of deep and chronic depression and lethargy. The Scientists should have been horsewhipped for doing THAT to the poor baby Monkeys... and it screwed them up for Life (both the Baby Monkeys AND the Scientists). BUT the Monkeys DID NOT GET ANGRY.

what is it about you as an individual that makes you Angry about Rejection and Abandonment when other people are simply disappointed and saddened by it?
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