anger and resentment towards sister

burt68 wrote:Okay I will take your suggestion and research cognitive therapy, but I’m not sure if you’re saying it will solve relationship problems with daughter, sister, resentment or all the above. My daughter has cut off herself off from most of the family, old friends and much of society so I’m not sure I can move to the acceptable side from her standpoint.

As far as creating a case, I consider that I have a long standing trait that I am a good debater who anticipates the other side and has a pre-prepared argument at the ready. I probably look at it as a chess game. However with my daughter I did have to learn to stop thinking, if I could only try x I could break the code. Working in a vacuum you can drive yourself crazy with theories.

I don’t like it in other people when they say “but my intentions were good” as shield or justification for doing counterproductive things. So I hope I’m not doing that.

Hi Burt,

Sorry for the delay. I got busy on a Math project (going back to school for a 2nd degree). GOOD! Look, my favorite author in Anger Management is Ronald Potter-Efron, who's written many popular books and even a few College Textbooks, all from the Cognitive Behavioral School. But in your case you would need to extrapolate, since, you're problem in NOT anger (which is a Blessing because for Angry People, even if they do all the work and become Saints, well, nobody really believes it. In social-psychological terms once you imprint on a Group as some threatening Angry Person, well, that is who you are. BUT, I was thinking about how educated you must be and so I should go the extra mile for you with my Recommendations. I turns out that the Giants of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy are Albert Ellis and Aaron Beck. Albert Ellis was first but he called it "Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy", and everybody said "WHAT?" but then Aaron Beck came along a few years later, after independently coming up with much the same system, and THEN discovered the work of Ellis and borrowed all the really good stuff from there. Both have written a lot of books: some books are General Theory and other books apply the CBT (or REBT) to specific disorders. Interestingly, if you do a search for Beck and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy you will find a book by Aaron's daughter, who became a Psychologist.

I tell all the Anger Management Cases that their WORK on Anger Management will come along a lot easier if they become an Expert in the Field. For one thing, HOW does one practice NOT being Angry. So reading all the books helps to keep one's head and imagination involved. In your case, well, maybe you should be involved in Positive Psychology, that is to increase you own Happiness, well... personally I think that is kind of vain. there are more important things than Personal Happiness. BUT, you can use some of the ideas with the intention of coming up with a plan on how to MAKE OTHER PEOPLE HAPPY.

Yeah, you are a Debater. I was on a debate team to (the friggin Captain.... not a very good one. When asked to argue against something I believed in, I would get snarky and ironic and present the correct argument, but for laughs.) I had a brother though who became a Lawyer. He should have been more careful. In Psychology there is a thing called Cognitive Dissonance, where your brain will conform your attitudes and even emotional appraisals in order to conform with even just Appearances. So Lawyers begin to BELIEVE what they Argue after a while. that is why lawyers are often kind of Social Misfits... all that Arguing for whoever has money to pay them WARPS their Belief Systems and Social Moral Outlook. Oh, but, yeah, Debaters get into the Habit of Scoring Points on their Friends and Families. Really, I believe the Schools need to put an end to those Debate Teams (Now, Jimmy, argue for the WRONG side, and make sure you really Humiliate little Tommy). the Schools really need to Teach Social Skills and Anger Management. How to get along with everybody and Not Make Waves.

Burt, with your daughter and sister... well,not so much your sister as i think you could patch it up with her over a three martini lunch (you're the one throwing up all the walls there), but your daughter will take years for her to realize that she really isn't having a problem with you. With my own daughter, well, her mother and I got a divorce but I would visit annually and call and write and pay for report cards and stuff and was supportive and never got into any Discipline Issues, you know, WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE. But it is NOT all about me, and I had to deal with her PERCEPTION of Family Adult Authority Figures and how she thought I fit into THAT Model. Really, you CAN'T expect People to see YOU as you yourself see yourself. Other people can only look at you and Generalize from Type. People have Expectations. The only thing you can do is slowly put out particular instances of your own behavior and have conversations where you put out your own opinions. Slowly you can Differentiate Yourself from Generic Type. But with your Daughter, well, you HAVE differentiated yourself, and she doesn't like it. Burt, maybe you should take about a Year to become an Expert on, you are not Angry, and so you will have to almost design your own Mode of Therapy.... "Social Acceptance Therapy" where you just figure out what exactly you have to do to be Accepted. Wow, Burt, if you do a good job, you could write a Book! but, yeah, do that for a year or two until you really feel theoretically solid in your approach, then do something REALLY SYMBOLIC for your Daughter which will represent to her WHEN MY FATHER CHANGED. It would involve doing something that would be TOTALLY outside her model of expectations for you. it could even be something STUPID, and all the better for being something STUPID, like showing up dressed like Bozo the Clown (Jeff Bozos the Clown!) . But, yeah, Burt, I think you are really smart and so all I really need to do is shove you in the right direction and you really will become an Expert in your Own Problem. You probably will write a book. In ten years your daughter will be laughing with you and smiling (and you'll use in in Chapter 7 of your 2nd Book!).

but, yeah, Burt, I think you will do okay. But, yeah, GET TO WORK!

Quiet voice: I have shown great concern for Samantha in the past. When she had open heart surgery, I took vacation and flew to be with her. When she messed up getting a loan to buy house, I offered to give her a short term loan. I have helped her in many ways. When she needed me I was there. That's partly why it hurts. I don't why you make such negative presumptions against me and cast me in such light.. BTW Samantha was the other woman one time moving in with a married man with kids. She couldn't understand why the he didn't want her to meet his wife. Something about the divorce not being final. You can rationalize it's okay, but people were hurt and it turned out badly for all involved.

You seem surprised that we're going to the wedding. In fact no only are we going, but we are paying for it. With no conditions. It's because we have unconditional love and I think shows good character.

You are distorting what I am saying. My relationship with my daughter is complicated as it is and I resent my sister adding another dynamic, particularly given her poor character and history of taking sides in broken families for her selfish purposes.

Now please show that you can follow the advice you gave me that when someone tells you to go away … do it.

burt68 wrote:Now please show that you can follow the advice you gave me that when someone tells you to go away … do it.

I'll start with this because I've no idea where I gave this particular advice in this thread. And . . .

This is a public forum where anyone is free to make comments as they wish, so long as the forum rules are followed.

burt68 wrote:. . . Samantha . . . I have helped her in many ways. When she needed me I was there. That's partly why it hurts. I don't [know] why you make such negative presumptions against me and cast me in such light..

Would you care at all about Samantha if . . .

I don't mean to come off as negative, and I apologize if I did.

Regarding Samantha, my meaning is strictly within the context of your concern between her and your daughter. Would you resent Samantha if she wasn't involved with your daughter the way that you say the she is?

burt68 wrote:BTW Samantha was the other woman . . . You can rationalize it's okay, but people were hurt and it turned out badly for all involved.

Let me elaborate my meaning on this one. Between a married man and a woman outside of his marriage, he is the one who is responsible for turning away any romantic or sexual involvement with a woman outside of his marriage.

Similarly, your daughter is who is responsible with whom she allows herself to be involved.

Resentment against Samantha ignores this fact.

burt68 wrote:You seem surprised that we're going to the wedding. In fact no only are we going, but we are paying for it. With no conditions. It's because we have unconditional love and I think shows good character.

I'm not surprised. Why wouldn't you go? You directly stated that :

We and the rest of the family are back in now. Was it anything we did? No. It was that she didn’t want to explain . . .

And so I made the comment that I did.

burt68 wrote:You are distorting what I am saying. My relationship with my daughter is complicated as it is . . .

Step back for a moment. Why is it a complicated relationship?

burt68 wrote:. . . and I resent my sister adding another dynamic, particularly given her poor character and history of taking sides in broken families for her selfish purposes.

Who or what is it are you protecting here? You aren't protecting your daughter who , like anyone else on this planet, must learn how to make choices for herself regarding the best way to negotiate her own life.

Are you not being selfish yourself for wanting your daughter to not learn life's lessons so that your mind can be settled on this particular matter?


*

Hi Burt,

What, am I released? I posted something but you either saw it or you didn't.

Leo I found your comments to be constructive and thought provoking. I have begun researching cognitive therapy. I guess that means you’re released. Thanks.

Quietvoice normally I would reply but you are so funny. You advise me that I don't own my daughter and she is free to communicate with whomever she wants - or not and I have to respect that and if I don't like that then go meditate or find a hobby.. This whole parent, child, family stuff doesn't count for beans.

But in my case, if I ask you to go away from this conversation, well that doesn't apply to you. You have rights as a member in good standing of public forum! How about if I tell you to go find a hobby or go meditate - would that help?

burt68 wrote:Quietvoice normally I would reply but you are so funny. You advise me that I don't own my daughter and she is free to communicate with whomever she wants - or not and I have to respect that and if I don't like that then go meditate or find a hobby.. This whole parent, child, family stuff doesn't count for beans.

But in my case, if I ask you to go away from this conversation, well that doesn't apply to you. You have rights as a member in good standing of public forum! How about if I tell you to go find a hobby or go meditate - would that help?

Let me see.

You come here asking about what to do about the anger and resentment you have for your sister. This anger and resentment is, by your own words here, due to her involvement with your adult daughter.

Because your sister is involved with your daughter, you state that your daughter's behavior toward you, and your relationship with your daughter, is compromised. Hence, you have anger and resentment toward your sister.

I mention that your adult daughter makes her own choices about with whom she relates. No person outside of her, including you, has authority over her having a relationship with your sister.

Therefore, I suggest that probably a good thing to do would be to take some time to meditate. Get yourself out of your head, and into the present moment. Allow your thoughts to float by as if they were clouds. It's all just weather, those thoughts. By spending time meditating, you may find that you don't have to take your thinking so seriously. Hanging on to certain thoughts as if they are real, makes them into the unpleasant emotions that you experience.

And then, since you presumably don't like what I'm saying, you want to then put me out, like you do with your sister's relationship with your daughter. (Sorry, but you also don't have control over me.)

Who's the funny one here?

I think it’s time to call it a Mexican standoff.

burt68 wrote:I think it’s time to call it a Mexican standoff.

wikipedia wrote:The term Mexican standoff was originally used in the context of using firearms and today still commonly implies a situation in which the parties face some form of threat from the other parties.

.



I feel absolutely no threat from you in this exchange.

burt68 wrote:I have all I can handle as it is without my sister opportunistically adding complications. She likes to go around stirring the pot with family members saying "so and so said this about you".

and

My relationship with my daughter is complicated as it is and I resent my sister adding another dynamic, particularly given her poor character and history of taking sides in broken families for her selfish purposes.

This is a tough one, and it doesn't seem as though previous respondents have been able to acknowledge the pain it causes you. We are not machines, raising and nurturing children until they're deemed legally adult then saying: "Off you go, and have a nice life." There are expectations in parenthood, the chief one being that love and support will become reciprocal.

I don't see how you can stop caring about your relationship with Carolyn or feel que sera, sera about Samantha's interference. It seems they represent mental illness and personality disorder respectively. Nothing can 'logic' away the distress and frustration of that.

All you can do -- and it's probably the hardest thing you'll ever do -- is continue to show love and support for your daughter without painting your sister black. I'm glad you've been asked to attend (and pay for!) the wedding, but you probably need to keep a lid on your expectations. You're responsible only for your own words and actions, and as you've no doubt discovered, any attempt to explain, deny or justify serves only to tangle the web.

Thank you. Although my daughter had shut out nearly all her old friends and family, the typical reaction of many outsiders is: look at your self buddy, you caused this. You need to up your game. One by one other family members found out they were on her do not call list and asked why me? What did I do? I had to learn to not to think about: if I only did this it would break the code. But that is in the past and doesn’t need to be replowed. I just need to deconstruct my anger and resentment towards my sister, but I have this hole or swirling whirlpool that keeps saying how could another family member be so selfish,cruel and of such poor character? And she finally met with me a year after the incident she contributed to and I explained the real issue wasn’t her initial mistake but all compounding actions afterwards. So I burst her bubble that “she did nothing wrong” which she at time admitted but since has climbed back into the bubble. It’s how she copes and why shes never been able to maintain a long term relationship with a significant other. So we have this situation where I can’t compartmentalize and from Samantha’s standpoint, she knows the dirty laundry is out and I don’t play her game of lets pretend.

BTW daughter didn’t ask us to pay for wedding. We volunteered to give her same as older daughter. At the time we considered it risky to put forward because we didn’t know what our boundaries were.

burt68 wrote:I just need to deconstruct my anger and resentment towards my sister...

I'm not sure you do. Anger lets us know our boundaries have been crossed, so we can take action about it. Unfortunately no amount of complaint or attempts at setting boundaries has any impact on a person with a personality disorder. They simply can't help themselves, and I'm prepared to believe they suffer for it. You would probably find better and more informed support on the Out of the FOG website, https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php, which is specifically about the havoc caused by people with personality disorders. It's crazy-making behaviour.

The best avice seems to be stay right away, and strictly limit or even cut off all contact. That would leave you free to concentrate on your relationship with your daughter, in which ideally you're aware of your personal boundaries while keeping your own reactions impeccable. It's a tough call, and you need to look after yourself. The good news is that unlike people with PDs, people with mental illness do much better when boundaries are made clear to them.

I burst her bubble that “she did nothing wrong” which she at time admitted but since has climbed back into the bubble. It’s how she copes and why shes never been able to maintain a long term relationship with a significant other.

That's exactly it. Her acknowledgment of what she'd done was probably what's known as a 'Hoover'. From the FOG website:
A Hoover is a metaphor taken from the popular brand of vacuum cleaners, to describe how an abuse victim trying to assert their own rights by leaving or limiting contact in a dysfunctional relationship, gets “sucked back in” when the perpetrator temporarily exhibits improved or desirable behavior.

FOG, by the way, is an acronym for Fear, Obligation and Guilt. There's fear about what this loose cannon might do or say next; obligation to keep trying where blood relatives are concerned; and guilt when you want to set limits or let a family member go out of your life altogether.

So we have this situation where I can’t compartmentalize and from Samantha’s standpoint, she knows the dirty laundry is out and I don’t play her game of lets pretend.

It's utterly incomprehensible to you, and would be to most people, that Samantha appears to set out to create havoc in all her closest relationships. A non-PD who simply wants to get on with the people around him is always going to feel hurt and bewildered by a PD family member.

On her part, she has to pretend. The one thing she can't face is that she's the common denominator in all those relationships that haven't worked. She can charm people in a manipulative way, and theoretically it's possible never to run out of new 'supply', but to me that would mean she can never get comfortable. Family and long-term friends are, for most of us, the buffer between us and an increasingly stress-filled existence.

BTW daughter didn’t ask us to pay for wedding. We volunteered to give her same as older daughter. At the time we considered it risky to put forward because we didn’t know what our boundaries were.

I'm less clear on what goes on with your daughter, but I believe and hope you've got it in hand. Given that you say your relationship with her is "complicated", it's probably just a case of getting Samantha out of your head.

You have to patch things up with you sister, its important for many reasons, such as closure, and support and communication, etc. Make things up with her, even if it means you make the first move.

I’ve made the first, second, third and fourth move. She’s not interested in working things out. Just wants to tell different stories to different people. If we talk she has to face her lies.