Group therapists covering for one another?

I'm not a therapist, I'm an educational psychologist, so feel free to ignore my post. What I find interesting is the adversarial stance. What drives this stance outside of loss of respect for the therapists?

Put another way, loss of respect for the therapist causes you to possibly lose respect for the overall program, loss of respect for the overall program possibly causes frustration regarding....? What? Are you paying too much, are you forced to attend, is it the only group program of it's kind available in your area? What keeps you from simply moving to a different program?

Hi Richard, thanks for replying to my question! This group program is available to me for free on account of my psychiatric diagnosis. (I live in a welfare state.) I cannot afford paying for my own therapy. So it's this or nothing. Hence my interest in making the best of it, but I find it difficult to trust and respect the therapists when they pretend like they're omnipotent rather than owning up to it when called on their mistakes.

PS: I love your signature quote. FYI his name is spelled Heraclitus.

PPS: Haha, I guess I just exemplified what an annoying know-it-all I can be, right? I kind of feel sorry for my therapists! And yet I cannot trust them unless they can deal with my high standards without becoming defensive and shutting me down.

Crashnikova wrote:Hi Richard, thanks for replying to my question! This group program is available to me for free on account of my psychiatric diagnosis. (I live in a welfare state.) I cannot afford paying for my own therapy. So it's this or nothing. Hence my interest in making the best of it, but I find it difficult to trust and respect the therapists when they pretend like they're omnipotent rather than owning up to it when called on their mistakes.

PS: I love your signature quote. FYI his name is spelled Heraclitus.

PPS: Haha, I guess I just exemplified what an annoying know-it-all I can be, right? I kind of feel sorry for my therapists! And yet I cannot trust them unless they can deal with my high standards without becoming defensive and shutting me down.

Lol, hilarious. I have had that quote up basically since joining and always overlooked the misspelling. Thanks for pointing it out.

I could see where it would be frustrating if it is the only program offered. I think the question then is to ask yourself, how do you get the most out of your time? At the end of the day time is finite and, IMO our most precious resource. Do you get the most out of your time by going and if you go do you get the most out of your time by trying to point out their errors or by overlooking their errors? It could be a choice to be selective in the errors you point out. Regardless, accept that outright change of the therapists is most likely not going to be an end result of being adversarial. Factor that in and then decide how to use the session as productively as possible, given the limits in the quality of the therapy.

And it still didn't change my signature, lol.

Edit: And again...will have to see why the updated version is not saving.

There it goes

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Lol, hilarious. I have had that quote up basically since joining and always overlooked the misspelling. Thanks for pointing it out.

No problem, I'm glad you didn't mind. (I've found that some people think that kind of thing is pointless smart-assery.)

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:I could see where it would be frustrating if it is the only program offered. I think the question then is to ask yourself, how do you get the most out of your time? At the end of the day time is finite and, IMO our most precious resource. Do you get the most out of your time by going and if you go do you get the most out of your time by trying to point out their errors or by overlooking their errors? It could be a choice to be selective in the errors you point out. Regardless, accept that outright change of the therapists is most likely not going to be an end result of being adversarial. Factor that in and then decide how to use the session as productively as possible, given the limits in the quality of the therapy.

You're absolutely right - rationally I see that. It's difficult for me though - more difficult than that kind of pragmatism usually is - and I think it's because it's tied up with some of the very issues I'm in therapy for: I expect too much of those whose guidance I lean on and don't take enough responsibility for myself, instead counting on a guardian figure (currently my SO, formerly my mother and then my brother) to let me know where the boundaries are and what's acceptable, and then I happily do my thing within that space. I'd like to have the therapists do the same for me, but when they demonstrate that they're not really there for me, it alienates me like crazy. I would love to be able to talk about this in therapy, but that kind of would require that they would concede that they were not infallible, right? Or maybe not? Hmm... That's a new thought. Maybe they would be open to conceding fallibility in the abstract without conceding specific failings?

(Forgot to say thanks for the advice!)

Crashnikova wrote:You're absolutely right - rationally I see that. It's difficult for me though - more difficult than that kind of pragmatism usually is - and I think it's because it's tied up with some of the very issues I'm in therapy for: I expect too much of those whose guidance I lean on and don't take enough responsibility for myself, instead counting on a guardian figure (currently my SO, formerly my mother and then my brother) to let me know where the boundaries are and what's acceptable, and then I happily do my thing within that space. I'd like to have the therapists do the same for me, but when they demonstrate that they're not really there for me, it alienates me like crazy. I would love to be able to talk about this in therapy, but that kind of would require that they would concede that they were not infallible, right? Or maybe not? Hmm... That's a new thought. Maybe they would be open to conceding fallibility in the abstract without conceding specific failings?

(Forgot to say thanks for the advice!)

Glad the advice has some value. Most likely you can get the therapists at a minimum to concede fallibility in the abstract. What I understand from your response is you are looking for the therapists to set boundaries, to in effect shift that burden from your SO to the therapists? But, to respect the boundaries you need to respect them and in order to respect them you need them to admit they are fallible. Would it not be better to focus on how to set your own boundaries? Or am I misunderstanding?

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Glad the advice has some value. Most likely you can get the therapists at a minimum to concede fallibility in the abstract. What I understand from your response is you are looking for the therapists to set boundaries, to in effect shift that burden from your SO to the therapists? But, to respect the boundaries you need to respect them and in order to respect them you need them to admit they are fallible. Would it not be better to focus on how to set your own boundaries? Or am I misunderstanding?

No, you're not misunderstanding, you're right. It's my ultimate goal to take responsibility for myself without relying on my SO or anyone else.

It's just an overwhelming goal. I've never been very long without someone who supported and disciplined me. It just seems like I need an intermediate step of having a therapist who could partially fulfill that role while helping me to take more responsibility in my relationship with my SO. Right now I face the double whammy of being reliant on my SO for guidance while also being in a romantic relationship with him, so if we disagree on something, there's always the looming threat of a fight and ultimately a breakup if I don't see things his way.

Crashnikova wrote:No, you're not misunderstanding, you're right. It's my ultimate goal to take responsibility for myself without relying on my SO or anyone else.

It's just an overwhelming goal. I've never been very long without someone who supported and disciplined me. It just seems like I need an intermediate step of having a therapist who could partially fulfill that role while helping me to take more responsibility in my relationship with my SO. Right now I face the double whammy of being reliant on my SO for guidance while also being in a romantic relationship with him, so if we disagree on something, there's always the looming threat of a fight and ultimately a breakup if I don't see things his way.

Consider the idea taking responsibility entirely for oneself is not necessary and most of us don't, even if we think we do. Self-help literature often focuses on how we must change how we think (internal), ignoring external strategies that are not only accepted, but actually often placed in our lives without us realizing. Laws are the most common example. Included in external strategies includes the idea of support and discipline be provided in a healthy relationship by an SO. It is not yes or no, it is a degree of support/discipline negotiated (most often informally) between you and your SO. The following article was published in a book called Time Thief: Philosophical Essays on Procrastination.

I'm not saying procrastination or willpower is your issue necessarily. I'm saying don't discount using external strategies to establish boundaries for yourself. Therapists are an external strategy, but there are many others you can use as well. Maybe you don't need therapy after all, lol. But then again I don't know what "boundaries" you are crossing or how much you are relying on others.

http://www.phil.uu.nl/~joel/research/pu ... h-Anderson)Feb2009.pdf

Thank you, Richard, for that perspective and the link! (I always enjoy the Behavioral/Experimental Economist take on things, so that article was right up my alley. ) The reasoning strongly resonates me; in fact, I've actually tried to reason along those lines in arguments with my SO, saying that while HE may be a very self-determined and disciplined individual, historically we have seen that I am a lot more susceptible to external circumstances shaping my behavior, and why don't we take that fact as given and set about shaping my circumstances accordingly so as to shape me into the best person I can be? But then he counters that (1) I require luxury conditions in order to behave like a normal adult (he's compared me to the princess in the fairytale The Princess and the Pea) and (2) I always say that if only this and that condition were fulfilled, then I would be able to get more work done, and it's really just an excuse; even if I get all my ducks lined up in a row, then I still don't get as much done as a normal adult. And I have to admit that these counterarguments have the ring of truth to them.

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Maybe you don't need therapy after all, lol. But then again I don't know what "boundaries" you are crossing or how much you are relying on others.

I find this uncanny; you've hit the nail on the head in a way that my therapists haven't done. I'm extremely good at presenting myself as high-functioning, knowing what to say to people to get them on my side. It's only my track record that shows that once people buy into my act and invest in me, I end up letting them down. In my previous therapy I have sometimes fantasized about getting together all the people who have been bitterly disappointed in me by way of proving how much havoc I have managed to wreak despite my facade of brilliance...

Thank you again.

Hi crashnicova,

With reference to your first post, I've also felt something similar in individual therapy.
I've never had group therapy, but in my instance my therapist wouldn't take responsibilty for her "errors/slip ups", whatever you want to call them. Sometimes she would and that was good. But at times, when I was sometimes feeling more vulnerable/hurt, realising that it had affected me a lot, she wouldn't. She'd say she was sorry I felt that way, or didn't remember and at times get very defensive.
I honestly feel that I would,ve respected her more and felt far more trusting, if she'd acknowledged her shortcoming. It made me feel that she was acting like my parents who dismissed and denied my feelings so it wasn't a good outcome.
I know that I also have high standards (of myself too) and I have been told that I have unrealistic expectations!
So, I just thought I'd share my view with you! I have read somewhere that therapists should minimise their mistakes but I think it;s hard to foster trust in that setting. But, it looks like Richard would disagree?
Miranda

miranda39 wrote:With reference to your first post, I've also felt something similar in individual therapy.
I've never had group therapy, but in my instance my therapist wouldn't take responsibilty for her "errors/slip ups", whatever you want to call them. Sometimes she would and that was good. But at times, when I was sometimes feeling more vulnerable/hurt, realising that it had affected me a lot, she wouldn't. She'd say she was sorry I felt that way, or didn't remember and at times get very defensive.
I honestly feel that I would,ve respected her more and felt far more trusting, if she'd acknowledged her shortcoming. It made me feel that she was acting like my parents who dismissed and denied my feelings so it wasn't a good outcome.
I know that I also have high standards (of myself too) and I have been told that I have unrealistic expectations!
So, I just thought I'd share my view with you! I have read somewhere that therapists should minimise their mistakes but I think it;s hard to foster trust in that setting.

Hi Miranda, thanks for responding and sharing your own similar experience! It's reassuring to hear that others have had the same disheartening experience - it makes me feel like it's not abnormal to react so strongly when a therapist refuses to own up to their mistakes.

Incidentally, I have actually had a wonderful individual therapist who was able to be transparent with me and acknowledge her non-omnipotence. For instance, she once said she felt like she wasn't sure how to respond to me today and that she was afraid I would react badly to her not having anything insightful to contribute. She was genuinely disconcerted, and she was absolutely right that I found it difficult, and I would not have been able to handle it if it had been one of our first sessions. However, because we had already had 10+ sessions during which I had come to trust her a great deal, and also because she was secure enough in her competence to be able to admit it in the very moment when she did feel uncertain it led to a productive talk about how there are shades of grey between my rather black and white experience of people either understanding me or not understanding me. Most of the time she was able to hit the nail on the head and shed light on whatever I was saying, but sometimes she wasn't, and that didn't mean she suddenly didn't care or wasn't competent - it just meant that all people are fallible and that I can't rely on an omnipotent caretaker to always know just how to handle me. I felt like I grew up a little bit there (about 15-20 years later than most people, but oh well! ).

But, it looks like Richard would disagree?

I don't think so? He's just telling me to do the cost-benefit analysis of my options.

miranda39 wrote: But, it looks like Richard would disagree?

Miranda, why did you or do you think I would disagree? I'm just curious how you interpreted what I wrote.

Crashnikova wrote:I can't rely on an omnipotent caretaker to always know just how to handle me.

Exactly. Caretakers, whether a therapist, SO, friend, family, trainer, support group etc. can play a role, but they are fallible, occasionally getting it wrong. That doesn't mean they don't care. It is important to find people that you can communicate with openly, feel comfortable explaining your specific need for boundaries and making it work for you. If a person is consistently or does not want to help you maintain boundaries, do your cost-benefit and make the right choice.

We all have boundaries, including those we see as our caretakers. Your therapist needs support in his or her life as well, so does an SO. Even people that seemingly have their life together, may appear not to need caretakers, but is more likely they have simply found caretakers and strategies that work for them. Given we all have boundaries, we are all fallible, I think we all must use both internal and external strategies to handle ourselves, to help set and monitor our boundaries.

Hi,
Richard I think I misinterpreted you, sorry. In your first response to OP, I thought you were questionning why the poster was focussing so much on the errors "Are you paying too much money?". This isn't really what you were saying.
Crashnikova-thanks for your response. My therapist did admit to being fallible and that she had "feet of clay". But there were times when I expected more of her and felt let down. I was expected to own up to my responsibilities after all?! She wasn't that harsh, actually, she encouraged it not demanded it.
It is very difficult, or felt for me anyway, kind of regressing and feeling that you were with someone who was strong and could guide me in a beneficial direction. My therpaist had a "blank screen " style and didn't divulge much of her problems/life but did share the odd thing. This does lend to the fantasy that they're " sorted" and don't have problems. This is where, what Richard has contributed, is useful. And, I find it hard to acknowledge those things.
Being honest, I don't know how I would've felt if she'd told me that she was having a bad day, as I did feel that I was paying a fair amount for the sessions and I can't imagine her saying that to me at all. But it may've helped, in retrospect.
Sorry if I'm rambling now. Like you, I do lean on others 'take' on my situations/problems a bit too much. And then if I feel it's even a tiny bit, not in my best interest I can feel very betrayed!
If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to hear more about your general experiences of group therapy, as it's something that I'm considering doing?
Miranda

Sorry crashnikova-it's your thread and I made it too much about me.
Hope you get your original question answered.