The danger of unsupervised therapy

Hey guys,
I am still here. Been kinda busy but I am glad to see there is still communication between you two.
Herbie, I responded to this post initially because I have had some experience with "crutching", when I was been lent on so hard I nearly fell over, figuratively speaking. I can imagine Candid being a very effective "tool" to gain perspective in your life but I think you underestimate yourself. You have offered plenty of sound and practical advice on this forum and maybe it is time you stood back from your state of affairs in order to truly understand and deal with them effectively. You need to learn to swim to stop yourself from drowning. Candid is only keeping your head above water, meanwhile she is being pulled under.
No matter what. Candid always felt compelled to answer your posts. Whether it was because she felt obliged or simply just cared too much, she was there for you for a very long time and you need to cut her a break. It doesn't mean there are sides to take or points to argue. Just accept this and be grateful for all the time and effort. This is not a reflection on you, just a reflection on the situation. No harm done. It certainly hasn't changed my perspective on either of you.
Herbie, it is time you learn to stand on your own two feet and we will be there you guide along, just as we know you will be here to offer the same great advice as always.

if I asked you how things were, you didn't say a lot. Maybe I should have pursued it or I wasn't a very good listener.

I often told you how similar (as well as how different) your childhood was to mine. Nowadays if there's something I can't handle in my own life I have plenty of people to turn to. I'm sorry you felt guilty for it being about you all the time but I would respond the same way in real life. When a friend's going through a crisis I'm not going to talk about my own stuff; I'll take it elsewhere. You were never "too much of a handful" until it became clear you were dependent on me and that you thought I wasn't doing enough.

I've never even been able to get angry in therapy (at least in therapy there's a 'blank slate' dynamic in the relationship - they are therapists... full stop).

Exactly. And I know I told you I was never able to blast a therapist, either, so you weren't alone there! I tried to share what had worked for me, which was a form of self-therapy. I'm very big on Karyl McBride's book, re-parenting ourselves, and the things we tell ourselves about ourselves, aka affirmations. One of my early concerns was that you were spending so much time writing to me that you were making little headway in healing yourself.

Part of my problem is I feel as if everything is my fault.

I can see this, but don't underestimate your capacity for getting angry with others! You do, and you have no compunction about expressing it. I'm afraid you may have spent a lifetime bottling it up where you think the person might hit back, and taking it out on people you trust not to, ie. those closest to you. We both know where that started, don't we?

it would be easier for me if you were to punish me now (and get it out of the way) than have to fret... waiting for it to happen.

Herbie, you're a knucklehead. Will that do?

The strange thing is, I get on with most people in my day to day life. Unless there's a therapist / pseudo therapist dynamic between us, I don't wind people up to the point of driving them to distraction.

You told me several times that everyone you got close to ultimately abandoned you. How many of them were pseudo-therapists? And how many did you drive away because they were getting too close?

I can't abide conflict and would rather crack jokes and diffuse the situation

That would have been nice... but unlikely to work if the conflict is in your imagination.

I'm glad to have you along as chaperone, gwen.

gwen wrote:I have had some experience with "crutching", when I was been lent on so hard I nearly fell over...

It was a new one on me, but I won't forget it. I've been in similar situations on the forum, but with witnesses I have no fear of it getting out of control. Never again!

Candid always felt compelled to answer your posts. Whether it was because she felt obliged or simply just cared too much...

I care. The onerous feeling of obligation came later, but I continued caring through accusations of mind games, defection and pettiness, so that in the final stages of the PMing I was continually explaining myself in growing frustration while Herbie apparently believed I didn't like her any more but that I lacked the Candour to come out and tell her what she'd done.

I can imagine Candid being a very effective "tool"...

:lol: Can we make that "facilitator"? Tool means something else in England.

"tool: an "un-cool" person; "loser"." Dictionary of Slang
Ha, I certainly did not mean that

Candid, I understand your frustration but you also need to ask yourself if some of that frustration is due to your disappointment in yourself for letting this situation get to the point where you have become overwhelmed? (I am not insinuating that you may feel this but I am curious)

Just think about it Candid,
You lost the control of being the therapist
You may have realised that Herbie wasn't learning from all the hours of effort you put in
You succumbed to the mind games and the manipulation
How do you feel this experience has affected you?

you also need to ask yourself if some of that frustration is due to your disappointment in yourself for letting this situation get to the point where you have become overwhelmed?

I'm glad to have had the learning experience. The only thing I regret was that the conversation went off-forum, which shut other members out. Looking at the precipitating thread now, I see I had already identified a potential problem:

Candid wrote:I knew I was running the gauntlet on our counting thread. I saw it over and over again. You thought (and said) that you'd offended me; that I was bored with our dialogue; that I was 'being kind' and probably had better things to do. Let me just say: you will never offend me. Ever. I will never be bored with you. And I am quite simply not anywhere near that 'kind'!

I naively expected to be believed and didn't take into account the all-encompassing power of perceptual filters.

You succumbed to the mind games and the manipulation

I knew none of it was intentional. Occam's Razor would have helped: the notion that the explanation requiring the fewest assumptions (ie. I'd got busier) is usually correct. That required only the assumption that I could be trusted to tell the truth, but didn't take into account the perceptual filter of someone whose childhood taught her she couldn't trust anyone. It was a great dilemma for me: which is more important, the dialogue or the big contract? I could do one of them well or both of them half-assed. Ultimately I chose the one with a guaranteed result, but it was touch-and-go for a while!

How do you feel this experience has affected you?

It's unlikely to stop me butting my head against brick walls until I cease to be astonished at my own hard-won recovery from childhood wounding. Knowing how slow, painful, circuitous and at times utterly hopeless it was, I set out to do what I spent years wanting someone to do for me: yank me out of it, even if I screamed. I see 'stuck' people all over the forum and I make a tentative approach if they have a sense that their perceptual filters (aka brick walls or rogue programming) are the problem. Even then it can be a long haul. However, I believe I've handed the last piece of the puzzle to a lot of people, some of them on the forum. Knowing what a difference it made to me, what a miracle it was, how could I resist? The best person to show you the way is the one who's been there and got out. IMO too many therapists haven't dismantled their own rogue programming and do more harm than good.

I've been tackling another brick wall on the forum and the same dynamic is playing out, except that the person concerned walks away rather than express anger. There's no question she does this in all her relationships. When it's done visibly, lurkers come forth much as you did to question the very obvious brick wall that the person concerned literally can't see. IMO that's a very good thing, even if the person who's stuck can't see it at the time but perceives himself as being attacked again. Eventually people ask themselves why they keep falling down at the same point, and every questioning of perceptual filters adds up.

Everyone has perceptual filters. This thread is an open invitation for members to point mine out to me, because like Oscar Wilde I believe my first duty in life is to know myself thoroughly. He didn't make it; I doubt I will either. Enlightenment is still reserved for a tiny minority, and the rest of us must do our best with the knowledge we have at the time. As long as I'm still working on it, my signature acts as a disclaimer.

Candid is only keeping your head above water, meanwhile she is being pulled under.

That's a brilliant analogy! You mentioned before that you'd been in a similar situation. May I ask how that worked out?

Candid, I am starting to understand. Because Herbie and you shared a similar childhood, you knew you could help her out of a predicament impeded by her perceptual filter (which may or may not have been similar to yours). Now, I guess you realise it was not working and, in fact, is developing into a very unhealthy relationship.
Because I can relate, I feel the same with people who suffer with anxiety as I have recovered (almost, still a bit of a driving phobia) from agoraphobia. I sometimes feel frustrated when others drown out my posts with advice that never helped me in the past. But, if it helps the sufferer I am glad and I move on. Nothing gets on top of me anymore. I simply don't let it (however it doesn't stop me arguing a few points for fun).
Let me explain something about me personally. I drowned. I spent my youth fixing people. I was an emotional problem solver. I have been described as an empath but I am not sure such a thing exists. I needed to start over so I moved away from everyone I knew and began again.
All close relationships I developed from then were balanced ones. I don't care how much emotional(or otherwise) help a friend needs as long as they are willing to return it. That is my friendship rule.
Although I am a trained psychotherapist, I didn't practice long as I became so sensitive to people's pain, it began to eat me from the inside.
I will give you a random example of a lesson I learned a long time ago. Back then I worked in a homeless shelter. Some guy had been staying with us for a few days and revealed that he was going to kill himself. I had heard that said so many times and always had a method of dealing with it. However, this case was different. I knew he was going to do it and I felt powerless.
I actually rang the Samaritans looking for some perspective. I explained my situation to a very pleasant and wise lady. Her advice was simple. She said that when someone is that determined there is nothing you can do or say that will change their mind. I had to let him go.
Some people look for help but have no notion of changing their ways. They appreciate the idea of change but don't really want to change. I guess they can imagine an alternative world where everything is rosy, but not able to imagine that world for themselves, as a real way of life. Then there are others who like to wallow in self-pity and crave the "drama". Life can be boring without it, I guess.
By the way, Herbie if you are still there, I am not insinuating that this is directed at you.... I don't know anything apart from what Candid has expressed so I am not assuming anything. Feel free to join in

Candid wrote:Thanks for wondering "is anyone supporting Candid?" Yes, I have a wide circle of friends, including but not limited to a number of colleagues in the 'helping professions' who would soon let me know if they thought my sanity was slipping!

I naively believed this to be sufficient support for you. I stand corrected, Candid.

A more recent example would be my mother and father in law. Both suffer from depression and are alcoholics.
My mother in law adores her son and grandson, and tries to treat her grandson as her own, which can be frustrating. She means well but everything she does revolves around herself. She shows traits of narcissistic behaviour. She is a lost soul and although I have tried to guide her, she is actually happy and comfortable being like this and refuses to change her ways.
My father in law has become institutionalised by his wife's controlling nature. She tells him what to do every waking minute. Although he claims to hate this (and they fight viciously when they are drunk about it), he is lost when she is not around. I have tried to pull him out of the pit they both dug for themselves, but he is not budging. He is also content being where he is.
I know this is a form of denial on both their parts and I have tried to help but I have to accept them for what and who they are.
I do find it difficult being around them as I sense so much pain and bewilderment. I know they are jealous of my family, wanting the chance for themselves to start over. I also know that I cannot help them and although they constantly moan and complain, I don't think they would be happy being happy.
So, I cannot help them. Years ago I would have done anything to try to "fix" them. If I tried now I would become overburdened by their self-induced pain and I know I would get nowhere.
Fact is that you can only help people who truly want it and are willing to change their outlook, their perceptual filter. Some people think they want to but don't actually want to at all.
Hi Herbie, glad to see you are with us. I am not making any comparisons here. Please feel free to join in.

support = friendship
support ≠ supervision
support ≠ therapy

It seems we needed some clarification before we got started. That's a given in therapy but unlikely in friendship.

A case of mistaken identity, it seems.

Candid wrote:It seems we needed some clarification before we got started.

I agree.

However, it would have been much better if I'd not stressed you out, taken up your limited time and energy or made a nuisance of myself at all.

I should have seen a qualified therapist who was receiving regular supervision.

gwen wrote:you knew you could help her out of a predicament impeded by her perceptual filter...

I wasn't thinking any such thing at the time! I was "just talking", because we're both sensitive souls and we have so much in common. We both enjoyed it for a long time.

I don't care how much emotional(or otherwise) help a friend needs as long as they are willing to return it. That is my friendship rule.

I don't have a friendship rule, at least not one I've ever articulated. In my experience some friendships are a joy for ever and the majority, circumstantial ones, run their course. I've never attempted to decide which is which when they begin... or even think, "is this a friendship?" Life's a smorgasbord of Other People; it's just a question of where I want to be, and doing what, at any given time.

when someone is that determined there is nothing you can do or say that will change their mind.

I know I'm quoting this out of context, but it's also true of what we call a mindset. I can say till I'm blue in the face that a person has nothing to apologise for and the reduced time I spend with him is because I'm busy with my own stuff, but if he's going through a rough patch he simply won't believe it. All I can do then is back off and wait it out...

"I can say till I'm blue in the face that a person has nothing to apologise for and the reduced time I spend with him is because I'm busy with my own stuff, but if he's going through a rough patch he simply won't believe it. All I can do then is back off and wait it out..."

Who's "him"? Or was this just a general reference, not to a specific person?

My "friendship rule" is not as black and white as I made it seem to be. I live in a small village. I have many friends, just not many close ones and I prefer it that way.
My close friends would shoulder my burdens as I would shoulder theirs. In times of crisis I would be there for them and know they would do the same for me. This is true friendship. The relationship I would have with my other friends is revolved around small talk. Nothing too taxing, the weather, news items, the price of fish....
That is my rule.

New question.
Candid, how did you think Herbie would react to your posting? You have spent a lot of time communicating with her. Was this response what you expected? What are you hoping to gain from this open thread? Closure for you or resolution for her?

One for you Herbie.
You have spent time with Candid. Is there anything specific she helped you with? Do you regret ever PMing? Which word relates to her more... friend or therapist?

Candid, you gave me an answer to my question "What is it you want from me?", though I do not believe you were serious in your answer - you must want something from posting my private messages on here.

Or did you simply want to teach me a lesson?

I do not believe you were serious in your answer

By "serious" you mean truthful, right? This has been the problem for a while, and it's the reason I stopped replying by PM at all. No matter how many times I told you I was simply unable to go back to writing so much, you thought there must be another reason: I didn't like you any more, therefore you must have done something wrong; or I was playing mind games and being nasty. It was frustrating to have everything called into question. My last few PMs to you were an attempt to explain things, but it's impossible to explain anything to someone who thinks you're lying.

I was horrified at the way things turned out. Your PMs to me were increasingly anguished and accusatory, going from you'd done something wrong to I'd done something wrong. At that point you didn't believe anything I wrote to you, so I started this thread in the hope of clearing it up. If other people could see the dynamic and say so, I didn't think you would be in such a bad space that you would see it as an argument with two sides and people ganging up on you.

Also, this is the way our conversation would have gone had it been on the forum all along. You told me everyone you got close to turned their backs on you sooner or later, and I can see the mechanism of that. People have loved you and been kind to you, and your upbringing led you to believe no one could care, so you had to be suspicious of their motives. I'm guessing other people also got worn down by the assumption that they could drop everything whenever you needed to talk, knowing that if they didn't do so you would start imagining you'd done something wrong. No one can go on indefinitely being called a liar, or having everything they say twisted to look like an attack on you.

That was what was going on by PM, and it would only have got worse after I stopped being Candid the Carer and turned into Candid the just-like-everyone-else-who's-abandoned-me. On this thread, too, you have shown that you still believe I don't care about you and that I'm out to punish you for something. It's worth thinking about, not about me (because I'm too far away) but about the people around you.

Right now, no one can care enough about you. If you can think well of yourself and accept help where you find it, things will change.

PS Apart from one line in which you said I'd been nasty, I haven't "posted [your] PMs here". What you've told me about your struggle is sacred; what you have believed about me needs to be challenged, not to clear my name but because being suspicious of good people is wrecking your life.