The danger of unsupervised therapy

Hi Candid, It's a shame that you have found yourself in this situation & that you have had to make this public posting.
Would it not have been just as easy to have blocked the PM's ?

Hi NIML

I don't know how to block a particular member, but that wouldn't have served my purpose anyway.

I was caught in wanting to reply but not wanting to spend endless hours on 'back room' stuff, so for several months I sent brief replies. That wasn't enough for the member concerned, who went to
Poor me: "I can't bear that I've lost your friendship"
Prove yourself: "You never cared about me"
and finally
Mea culpa: The most extraordinary catalogue of ways in which she thought she'd "upset" me, both on the open forum and by PM.

She refused to acknowledge that frequent and lengthy replies meant I was letting other things slide. It was as simple as that... until recently.

I wrote about this on the open forum because I expected the member concerned would see it. I had a message for her but I was absolutely NOT going to send it by PM! She has asked several times whether I want her to leave the forum. Of course I don't; it doesn't matter to me either way, except that I believe the forum means a lot to her. But this is a good example of 'willful misunderstanding', since I'd explicitly said I was happy to reply to anything she posted on the open forum.

I wanted to make it clear, above any other consideration, that answering two or three PMs a week at that length was unsustainable. I'm astonished I did it as long as I did, but by the time the new contract showed up there had already been a few occasions on which my dedication to one member, off forum had caused trouble for me. I'd tried several times to tell her this, and wished I'd stuck to "I'll write once a week".

When my workload increased I was no longer prepared to do even that much. I knew I would still get two or three PMs a week, and responding to all of it might easily mean having to say: "Sorry I can't go to that restaurant with you, but if I don't reply to X tonight she'll think I've abandoned her."

She really was whipping me at that point. If I didn't respond within 24 hours, I got
I'm sorry I [said whatever, or attacked you on-forum]. Please forgive me
Everyone abandons me sooner or later
or various ways of saying she was angry with me.

Why did I keep jumping to her demands? Because I believed, and still believe, that she had regressed in a way therapy predicts and really needed a mother... someone on-call all the time. BTW, I had several times urged her to find a real-life therapist.

Second message to X: That nothing she said to me (or near me ) upset me. It was all predictable stuff, even the "you've been nasty" comment. Having responded briefly but reliably for some time after saying I could no longer write so much, resisting all efforts to get more from me, I stopped responding by PM altogether because
there was no one to say either
Candid, you were out of line there
or
X, Candid didn't say blah blah
-- and that meant we were both in dangerous waters.

Rather a long apologia... but I wanted her to know this, and that I wish her well.

Candid, I am very sorry for the hurt I've caused and for messaging you after you had told me not to.
I will deal with my issues privately from now on and regret taking up so much of your time. Herbie.

Can I ask why Candid's post was reported or am I digging a deeper hole?

gwen wrote:Can I ask why Candid's post was reported or am I digging a deeper hole?

I reported it in order to speak to the moderator, not to report the OP.

Ok then. I was worried that you took offense to Candid, who was airing her frustration about the situation. I am glad that you have decided to move on (and hopefully not out of the forum). In all fairness to Candid, she calls it like she sees it.

Keep out of it Gwen.

It was brave of you to come out on the forum about this, Herbie.

Herbie306 wrote:I am very sorry for the hurt I've caused

This is precisely the kind of thing I've referred to as mea culpa and willful misunderstanding. I reassured you at least a dozen times that my reluctance to keep PMing so often and at such length had nothing to do with you; it was simply impractical for me to continue.

... and for messaging you after you had told me not to.

Actually I didn't; all I said was that I couldn't reply in such detail as I previously had. It was the attempts to hook me back in to long and frequent replies that made me clench my teeth, and you just weren't taking no for an answer. No doubt I would have continued replying briefly, and occasionally at greater length as time permitted, had you not written to me with imaginary crimes you'd committed interspersed with accusations that I was being "harsh" because I was no longer writing 1000 words, with quotes, two or three times a week. The final straw was "you've been good to me more than you have been nasty", which is nowhere near as ambiguous as you've since implied.

I ... regret taking up so much of your time.

As you are well aware, I did it willingly -- although it troubled me to be called to account for "disappearing" when I'd been busy elsewhere. It didn't really become an issue until the new year, when I realised I'd bitten off more than I could chew. I had a personal crisis in January that I eventually wrote to you about, since you seemed to require an explanation. After that my replies to your PMs got very much shorter, although there were a couple of long ones when I was on leave in April. Since then, several PMs from you told me how distressed you were by what you considered the loss of our "friendship".

Keep out of it Gwen.

I'm thankful to have an impartial observer here, for the very reason this conversation is no longer being conducted off-forum.

I stopped responding by PM altogether because there was no one to say either Candid, you were out of line there or Herbie, Candid didn't say blah blah -- and that meant we were both in dangerous waters.

I do not know what you want, however I am not going to continue being ranted at like this, or used as a punch bag.

You were aware of my attachment issues from the beginning and I double checked you had supervision; please do not make out you went into this blind.

You refuse to ever admit you made a mistake, but if you had accepted my first apology and been straight with me, none of this would have blown up.

Candid wrote:It was brave of you to come out on the forum about this, Herbie.

You left me with no choice; I couldn't sit here listening to you stabbing me in the back without being able to defend myself... and you were well aware of that.

Herbie306 wrote:Keep out of it Gwen.

Candid wrote:I'm thankful to have an impartial observer here, for the very reason this conversation is no longer being conducted off-forum.

Thanks to you, we have the whole forum to observe. It's a pity Gwen only has your side of the story.

Herbie306 wrote:I double checked you had supervision

You did not. I did not! I thought I was supporting an online friend, not providing therapy for which supervision is clearly necessary. The 'conversations' we had were simply the things I would say to a real-life friend who came to me with that kind of trouble.

I didn't discuss your PMs with anyone until I began this thread. I started it hoping you would finally understand why I stopped replying at length. A real-life friend would not expect to see me three times a week if I started a new job!

please do not make out you went into this blind.

In terms of envisioning where it might lead, I certainly did. That was naive indeed, but I'm a veteran of forums and I've never had such an intense encounter online before! I remember saying you needed someone you could talk to on the spot, and trying to find out what support systems you had. It was at least apparent to me that I couldn't be everything to you from so far away. For a while you were writing about a volunteer job and interactions with other people, including the person you identified as being at the heart of your troubles. You seemed very competent in your own life, easily able to say no to suggestions you didn't think right. Then when I had to reduce our contact, I warned you it was about to happen and told you why. It appears you have still not understood that, or don't want to.

And whether you want to believe it or not, it was a case of had to, NOT that I maliciously chose to write much shorter replies in order to punish you for some imagined slight. I can see now that it was bad timing for you, but there was nothing I could do about that unless I turned down a lucrative contract I'd been chasing for some time. It now looks as though you thought I should do that, and effectively run myself into the ground in order to continue our correspondence, which TBH looked like going on indefinitely. As it was, at the beginning of this year you hooked me back in several times while I was facing challenges in other parts of my life.

You refuse to ever admit you made a mistake,

I admitted that in the first post on this thread! It was clearly my mistake to set a precedent I couldn't maintain, and to do so where there was no independent observer.

if you had accepted my first apology and been straight with me...

You had nothing to apologise for and I have never been other than straight with you.

I couldn't sit here listening to you stabbing me in the back without being able to defend myself... and you were well aware of that.

You perceive it as being stabbed in the back; I was belatedly looking for supervision in my dealings with a forum member called X who "no longer understood" what I was saying to her because she believed (and apparently still believes) she was entitled to my time. I would never have named you or included identifying information. And far from being "well aware" that you would 'out' yourself in this way, I was surprised (but pleased, too) to see you had replied.

Thanks to you, we have the whole forum to observe. It's a pity Gwen only has your side of the story.

Then you must tell yours. Admin (and possibly the mods) have access to our PM boxes; I doubt anyone will say that my failure to continue spending hours writing to you off-forum is in any way reprehensible. Forum members will very likely see other things here that I'm not seeing, and I would be glad for their feedback.

Our PM boxes hold just 200 messages in inbox and outbox combined, so I don't know when we started our elaborate messaging. The earliest reply I made to you shows as March 2012, and we were well into the thick of it by then. I'm certain I spent more than a year on what could only be described as intense correspondence. If I replied to friends by email at that level I would never do anything else, including sleep.

I did it in the beginning, and for a very long time, because I enjoyed it and because it seemed to be helping you. Towards the end, in your last few unanswered PMs, it's clear that I didn't do anywhere near enough to satisfy you. I know I couldn't have done more, and it's hard to see what I could have done differently, given that I was naive enough to embark on it at all. I promise you I will never make that mistake again! I can only be sorry that what took so much of my time, energy and love ended up causing both of us so much anguish, and I hope you'll find better support elsewhere.

gwen, I presume, has obeyed your order. I acknowledge that you may not realise it, but I've said to you before that you are nowhere near as powerless as you pretend. This thread alone clearly shows, for example, that you're far better at looking after your own interests than I am.

I felt sure I checked you were having support, my mistake

I do understand why you stopped lengthy PMs - I was aware of that earlier on, which is why I kept saying that I would go, but you took it as me being manipulative or whatever.

You talked about inner child work, which I started doing, but yes, I admit... something happened when you didn't reply - I started to feel really stressed and yes, it felt like regression. I don't know, I just know it was frightening when it happened. I'd feel better when I was messaging you, but the next say or whatever, the guilt would crash down and I would sometimes delete it.

I don't have a problem with 'real life' friends. Though, you are right, I wouldn't put the kind of pressure on other people that I have done on you over the past X amount of months. A therapist would be aware of the issues I was dealing with in session and I would be able to call them if I was having a crisis. They would also be aware of my 'out of therapy issues': although I told you I was in danger of being made homeless (another reason I said I would leave here), you didn't respond and I said nothing more of it. I didn't make you aware of the issues that proceeded because I didn't want to be seen as being manipulative.

I am still volunteering regularly and I have other commitments and meet various friends - it has nothing to do with lack of social contact.

I am grateful for the support you have given me.

I requested external support many months ago; some of which did not help, so I took it further a couple of months ago.

I accept I have issues regarding blaming myself and feeling responsible for various things, which is primarily what I've requested to deal with when I visit the new therapist.

I have said I will not PM you again. I have apologised for taking up your time and energy.

I was wrong to expect you to take on my issues. I was wrong to put so much pressure on you.

What do you want from me?

Herbie306 wrote:I am not arguing anymore.

We haven't been arguing, we've been clarifying.

I felt sure I checked you were having support, my mistake

I'm curious as to whether you saw our correspondence as friendship or therapy. Supervised therapy is a concept I understand; supervised friendship suggests we needed a chaperone!

I kept saying that I would go...

Off the board? I would miss you, and so would others. Nor do I have any objection to receiving PMs, provided I'm under no obligation to act on them.

I accept I have issues regarding blaming myself and feeling responsible for various things...

If you truly believed you'd upset me in some way, there's certainly an issue there. It would have been easier to believe my real reason for reduced contact rather than trawl your own behaviours for some misdemeanour. I thought you knew me better than to think I might hold back if someone upset me!

What do you want from me?

We're now back to how things were before we took it offline, Lady Herbert. You'll always count with me.

98,946,765 98,946,766 98,946,767...

I'm curious as to whether you saw our correspondence as friendship or therapy. Supervised therapy is a concept I understand; supervised friendship suggests we needed a chaperone!

I don't know... I'm pretty sure that's where it went wrong... I've always seen you as a friend... a good one... but then you were supporting me, and it became all about me - my issues, my feelings - if I asked you how things were, you didn't say a lot. Maybe I should have pursued it or I wasn't a very good listener. I felt guilty for it being about me all the time and felt I was too much of a handful to deal with. 

You mentioned about getting angry... I did, but it felt so wrong to aim it at you. I felt so guilty for getting angry. I've never even been able to get angry in therapy (at least in therapy there's a 'blank slate' dynamic in the relationship - they are therapists... full stop). Part of my problem is I feel as if everything is my fault. I think I've pushed and pushed you for a response - as if it would be easier for me if you were to punish me now (and get it out of the way) than have to fret... waiting for it to happen.

The strange thing is, I get on with most people in my day to day life. Unless there's a therapist / pseudo therapist dynamic between us, I don't wind people up to the point of driving them to distraction. I tend to be the one to calm things down as I can't abide conflict and would rather crack jokes and diffuse the situation in any way I can than risk letting things blow out of control.