Can conversational hypnosis help people achieve "impossible"

Why be covert about helping others? If you want to help others believe in themselves, why not be overt about it? Why do you think you must do it without their awareness?

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Why be covert about helping others? If you want to help others believe in themselves, why not be overt about it? Why do you think you must do it without their awareness?

The thing is that being overt doesn't usually help. If you are being overt then you will talk to conscious mind which is very critical. And besides limits you have put on yourself are very hard to shake consciously. I want to push them past their limits and best way is unconscious mind. In covert hypnosis I can directly influence unconscious mind. This will give results way faster and better if it can. It might change their life forever as unconscious is responsible for habits of thinking. Thus if covert hypnosis will help then there is nothing better than that IMHO.

I can't conduct formal hypnosis sessions in workplace as I said earlier so I need to do it covertly.

Stealthy wrote: The thing is that being overt doesn't usually help.

Maybe you are not using the correct overt techniques, like the ones used by formal and informal leaders in a group or community.

I want to push them past their limits and best way is unconscious mind.

Where did you learn to believe this? Can you point me to controlled, peer reviewed scientific studies that prove this?

In covert hypnosis...This will give results way faster and better if it can.

Again, where are you learning this belief? Can you point me to controlled studies that prove this?

It might change their life forever as unconscious is responsible for habits of thinking.

Again a personal belief backed up by what scientific findings?

I can't conduct formal hypnosis sessions in workplace as I said earlier so I need to do it covertly.

You want to change your coworkers covertly. It sounds to me you are not satisfied with your role in the organization. If you want to make change, you become a leader, you inspire, you transform, you manage change overtly. Leaders do it, coaches do it, teachers do it.

You don't ever see a coach say they won the championship by covertly inspiring their players to do their best. Why? Because overt leadership works and covert manipulation has very limited scientific support and is largely pseudoscientific works that can't be replicated.

More than likely you believe in conversational hypnosis, because of the pseudoscientific sources you have been reading.

Go to Google Scholar. Find some peer reviewed studies from the 2000's on conversational hypnosis. Heck, just type in Hypnosis and date the range from the 70s and then the 90's and then current. Hypnosis does have some validity, some value, but there is a reason the number of scientific studies has fallen sharply since the 70's.

Many of your claims, things you think hypnosis can accomplish are not backed by anything other than authors with testimonials about how it works.

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:

Stealthy wrote: The thing is that being overt doesn't usually help.

Maybe you are not using the correct overt techniques, like the ones used by formal and informal leaders in a group or community.

I want to push them past their limits and best way is unconscious mind.

Where did you learn to believe this? Can you point me to controlled, peer reviewed scientific studies that prove this?

In covert hypnosis...This will give results way faster and better if it can.

Again, where are you learning this belief? Can you point me to controlled studies that prove this?

It might change their life forever as unconscious is responsible for habits of thinking.

Again a personal belief backed up by what scientific findings?

I can't conduct formal hypnosis sessions in workplace as I said earlier so I need to do it covertly.

You want to change your coworkers covertly. It sounds to me you are not satisfied with your role in the organization. If you want to make change, you become a leader, you inspire, you transform, you manage change overtly. Leaders do it, coaches do it, teachers do it.

You don't ever see a coach say they won the championship by covertly inspiring their players to do their best. Why? Because overt leadership works and covert manipulation has very limited scientific support and is largely pseudoscientific works that can't be replicated.

More than likely you believe in conversational hypnosis, because of the pseudoscientific sources you have been reading.

Go to Google Scholar. Find some peer reviewed studies from the 2000's on conversational hypnosis. Heck, just type in Hypnosis and date the range from the 70s and then the 90's and then current. Hypnosis does have some validity, some value, but there is a reason the number of scientific studies has fallen sharply since the 70's.

Many of your claims, things you think hypnosis can accomplish are not backed by anything other than authors with testimonials about how it works.

Ok. Since covert is out of picture, can you please suggest some good overt techniques because no luck so far. I can't seem to find any good overt techniques. Since you have so much faith in them, maybe you can tell me some good ones.

Stealthy wrote:can you please suggest some good overt techniques because no luck so far. I can't seem to find any good overt techniques. Since you have so much faith in them, maybe you can tell me some good ones.

It isn't faith, it is science.

Ever hear of social reciprocity? How about the field of neuromarketing? Behaviorism? Cognitive engineering?

For instance, did you ever wonder why in Germany the rate for organ donation is only 10% while in Austria it is over 90%? It isn't conversational hypnosis doing the trick.

There are studies. Controlled, peer reviewed, scientific bodies of work that can provide you highly reliable ways to influence people.

https://www.influenceatwork.com/wp-cont ... ciples.pdf

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:

Stealthy wrote:can you please suggest some good overt techniques because no luck so far. I can't seem to find any good overt techniques. Since you have so much faith in them, maybe you can tell me some good ones.

It isn't faith, it is science.

Ever hear of social reciprocity? How about the field of neuromarketing? Behaviorism? Cognitive engineering?

For instance, did you ever wonder why in Germany the rate for organ donation is only 10% while in Austria it is over 90%? It isn't conversational hypnosis doing the trick.

There are studies. Controlled, peer reviewed, scientific bodies of work that can provide you highly reliable ways to influence people.

Hmm.. I never heard of them. But they look very promising. Thanks for the pro tip Richard. Is there anything else that might be helpful. You can PM me if you want.

Two things:

1) Don't spend too much time on the Peliari stuff. I had the dubious chance of fighting my way through it once, and though there are some insightful elements in it, the majority of the explanations is doubtful even by standards in the hypnosis community. He seems to think minds work like computer networks (and I'm fairly sure that minds work much better than most networks). Do look at the mentalism parts, I guess (the ones about cold reading and such), that's worth thinking about. For the rest, focus on your other resources. Ledochowski tends to have a pretty straightforward and reasonable approach to things. I don't know anything about the other guy. If you want more sources... my first recommendation is Robert Cialdini who has written some excellent books about influence that are backed by research ("Influence" and "Pre-suasion" are both supposedly excellent, I only know about parts of both but my impression supports that verdict).

2) The most important bit isn't whether you do overt or covert influence. Both can work splendidly. The single most important thing in influencing people is understanding their perspective. If you can't do that, you have no more than a random chance of reaching through to them. The more you understand where they're coming from, the more you can beat the odds. The next element is meeting them half-way (or even further, in trickier situations) -- figuratively speaking, of course --, and there are many ways to go about that. Look into as many different approaches to influence as you can (no need to look at everything down to the atomic level, of course) and you'll probably be getting a lot of interesting ideas to make your communication more impactful.
(Also, just because people are listening to you doesn't necessarily mean your attempt at influencing them will work. Most of the time, if someone considers your idea crap, you can meet them at their doorstep but they'll still throw it out.)

Just keep in mind that a good way to covertly hypnotize people is by using magic.

but it is not the only way.

magic and hypnosis are 2 things that go together but it doesnt work if your pretend magic.
REAL MAGIC works way better and is more genuine.

for work covert hypno is not really suitable, but persuasive influence can be useful, but it is not real hypnosis. okay?
doing covert magic hypno might work if you transform an office building (can you explain more about your work) into a magical fairy tale like spot, with buddha's, incense and magical crosses and all that hypno inducing symbols.

Please, .... I ask this serious: ..... what are the chances you can create a situation like that on your work or on someone else's work.

Hypnoboy wrote:REAL MAGIC works way better and is more genuine.

Agreed. There is nothing like a level 7 charm spell. Another thing to consider are magic potions. Most workplaces have a water cooler. Now, I am NOT recommending you put anything in the water cooler...rather it is just an example...a hypothetical. If you want to help people achieve the impossible covertly then magic, hypnosis, potions...what else might we use?

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:what else might we use?

How about sarcasm? Just a random idea that magicked its way into my mind...

By the way, I'm pretty sure the canonical name is "charm" and not "charm spell". I can recommend a 7-set of excellent Bloomsbury textbooks on the subject, covering entry-level spells like Wingardium Leviosa but also more advanced topics like the Patronus charm (there is some material on potions, too). Magic simply doesn't get more real than that!

jargan wrote:

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:what else might we use?

How about sarcasm? Just a random idea that magicked its way into my mind...

Telepathy!!! Covert telepathy! The person hears a voice, but thinks it is their own internal dialogue. "You can do it!"

Cialdini is definitely a good read.

Iskilti wrote:Cialdini is definitely a good read.

Yes, Cialdini is top of the list. But, his work has nothing to do with hypnosis or magic. Covert manipulation? Yes.

I can see I have a lot of reading to do. Is it not possible that IF a person wanted to perform covert hypnotism (a big if and not something I am interested in doing) that understanding covert manipulation might be a good place to start? At least in Pre-suasion, if I remember correctly, (it has been a while since I read it), Cialdini mentions the possibility of unpredictable unintended and possibly damaging outcomes. This is something each covert manipulator might want to take into consideration before they attempt to effect a change.