What goes up, must come down

CandyApples wrote: Wasting time. I feel time and life is extremely precious and seconds are a gift, and he just wastes so much of it, and I'm left just sitting here....on my own, in silence...

And what about how much time you are wasting as you sit there?

Again you avoid self-reflection. Again another post is about what is happening to you, the pain that someone else or the world is causing you. You observe that he wastes so much time. WHAT ABOUT YOU?

My advice...again...is to begin the process of learning how to reflect on your issues, the time that you are wasting focused on how others are supposed to be or how the world is supposed to be, etc.

The above doesn't mean I don't feel for you. It certainly is difficult when you put forth effort and another person fails to meet your expectations, no matter how minimal.

CandyApples, I understand your desire to be noticed by your husband in a positive way. What I don't understand is why you would accept being "left in the background" in group outings. Aren't these people your friends as well as his? Is there no woman among them that you trust, and could talk to?

Your post reads as if you're a ghost in your own life. I would only have to be shunned once by a group of people and they wouldn't see me again if no apology were forthcoming.

You don't have to have the house spick and span, and be "dolled up" when he comes home. It doesn't seem to register with him, so why do so much that you clearly resent?

Each and everyday when he comes home I greet him at the door with a smile and a hug and lately he just brushes past me with some bs of "the house smells" or " I have a headach"

The message is loud and clear. He's irritated by your insatiable need for praise and validation. In your shoes I would be cutting it right back. If there's a hobby you enjoy, you could be engrossed in it and not leap up to greet him when he comes home. Back off, baby. You're not a dog that has to fawn over its owner in order to be fed. You're a woman with plenty of allure and a mind of your own.

I understand you have a young son. It's very common for a man's feelings to change when his wife gives birth. Seriously, let him come to you.

Candid wrote:Your post reads as if you're a ghost in your own life.

The message is loud and clear. He's irritated by your insatiable need for praise and validation.

Worth repeating.

Hi Richard, Its funny you mentioned self reflection, I had that moment when in the mist of my feeling the way I was with my husband, I broke down in the store (they played a song called heartattack) and BAM_- floodgates. Turns out, most of whatever it was I was feeling, was--- I just missed my dad. I guess denying over and over and over and over him being gone just builds, and then I paint it onto my husband....so when I need a hug or a kind word and HE doesn't do that, I don't think its totally because I was needing it from "him " as my hubby alone, I think I was needing it mentally (and didn't realize) bc Im still hurting so much and just had to tuck it all under the rug, so the hug and praise I needed that day was two fold--attention and love from the husban--and just a darn hug from someone---(which would of been my dad but he's gone.) Sooo yeah...I dunno... I think he is annoyed with my need for attention, but mind you, and I promise you this, I ask no more of 5 mins or just this- if the once in a while time I ask how do I Iook- pls respond with something more than "fine'. And..when you come home after work, take 30 seconds and just peck on the cheek or a hug..and that is literally it. So I just don't see how that's a lot on his end. We talked...and I explained to him my need for him or any man is Xyz.....and its like a flower..a flower needs sun, water, dirt to grow and be happy. If you keep it in the dark, don't water it, and soil runs..the flower will die. There are things a women needs to bloom, and there are things a man needs to bloom and it cant be one side. I hope your doing well!!

Hi Candid, you are correct I do feel like a ghost. Theres not much I find interesting as a hobby on my own that's reasonable or affordable...and even if I did, I worry if I meet ppl in those hobbies, would I grow emotionally attached? Even if its a friend, which may or may not be ideal for many reasons.. But I would love to horse back ride, they have a place a hour from here that lets you make your own sword or dagger with metal and fire (would love that)...I would love to go camping, or if they had a laser tag group that would be fun. His friends are all guys, minus my sis in law. All his friends literally come over and just are glued to him like no hi, or anything like that. No acknowledgement really and not even when I host the Christmas for them either. I tried explaining THAT to my husband too. They are all young. Once his friend and I talked and that night my hubby got mad at me bc "I talked too much" which was--crazy. I know Im making him sound bad, but there are a lot of good things about him, but in THIS case, its not so fun. He wanted me to pal around w my sis in law but we saw how that turned out. I agree with you about turning the tables, I did that for a few days and he gets soo mad then ends up saying he is sorry then plays good for a week or so. See, when my dad was around, that was my buddy and I honestly could care less at that time if my husband spent time with me or not, sad to say. I love him, but if I wanted to go somewhere or talk or whatever, I would take my kid, see my dad and off we would go....lots of fun.

I told my husband once the kiddo leaves for her own life, him and I are going to need to have a serious serious talk bc I cant just sit here and mentally disintegrate... Im not going to do it... so we will see. I hope you doing well !!!!!


--If you do not give right attention to the one you love, it is a kind of killing. When you are in the car together, if you are lost in your thoughts, assuming you already know everything about her, she will slowly die.--

THICH NHAT HANH

CandyApples wrote:I told my husband once the kiddo leaves for her own life, him and I are going to need to have a serious serious talk bc I cant just sit here and mentally disintegrate... Im not going to do it... so we will see.

Don't use the kiddo as the reason to delay the inevitable confrontation of what you have allowed yourself to become.

Your kiddo didn't or isn't causing you to sit and mentally disintegrate. Your husband didn't or isn't causing you to sit and mentally disintegrate

YOU used your father as the primary source of affection/validation in your life. You did that to yourself. That is not the fault of your husband. It is not the fault of your father. It is not your fault. It is simply the path that YOU chose.

Now your father is gone and after 18 years you are turning to your husband to fill that role. You now expect your husband to change.

I 100% agree with you that it should not take much effort on the part of your husband. But after 18 years of you using your father's shoulder to cry on, of using your father as the primary source of your laughs, your smiles, I can easily see why your husband might not be willing or isn't willing to be that replacement figure that you want.

I hope this response doesn't come across the wrong way. I'm not trying to be negative here about the relationship you have with your husband and I'm not trying to cast any blame on you, your father, or your husband. I simply am pointing out that your path forward has little to do with your kiddo, when the kiddo leaves home, or your husband and it has everything to do with you and your continued expectations of others.

Hi Richard,
Im def not using the kid as a excuse, I know this is my choice and right now I choose what it best for all of us--but, when and if it comes time to where certain things I do do not directly affect her, and (if things and I hope they dont--get worse as far as no emotional understanding if you will) then..I may choose to go down a different path. You are right am very much in control of what I choose. I do disagree with you saying that "Now your father is gone and after 18 years you are turning to your husband to fill that role. You now expect your husband to change."---- I think it should be expected very much so...because when I met him he was more emotion like...then it veered off and I did chose to lean more on my dad, you are right BUT I feel any husband knows going in, one of their "general" duties and musts, is to be there for their wife emotionally or in some form of showing love to where both get the message. I feel, example, if I choose to run in the house and stub my toe and start crying and my husband is right there, I do feel it is expected for him to be like whats wrong or are you ok. So even though I "chose" to run--his reaction is to react..like most humans do, to the situation at hand. He may be watching tv, but if Im crying in pain, I do expect him to "change" into a more caring role for that time being. Its been 4 years since my dad passed, that is more then enough time to "change" to bare minuim of "showing" emotion.
I mean right now we ALL are changing from our norm, due to the virus...life happens and change is expected especially in a relationship. And common sense shows hey wife is saying shes sad and this could help...lets give it a try...or just bare bones ...walk in hi how are you, hug....things good? then go about your day. While I did chose every step in my life, you are right, I did not forsee the future, no one can...so yes I do expect adaptation...on my end, on his end, etc. When his dad dies, I most certainly will be there. I had to change and try and like his video gaming, often sitting next to him as he plays, cheering him on..(even though in side its really boring) but it makes him happy. Thats bare bones relationship to me, and he knows it, and he's done it before. Its like the honey moon phase, guy treats the girl like gold, gets her...then doesn't have to try anymore.... I think its that (bc he knows I love him) and the fact he is, as Candid was talking about, not one to ...hmm..you wouldn't call him a emotional guy, has a hard time showing it, but yet use to write the most amazing poems. "YOU used your father as the primary source of affection/validation in your life. You did that to yourself. That is not the fault of your husband. It is not the fault of your father. It is not your fault. It is simply the path that YOU chose."--you are correct, but don't we all chose the steps we take in life? It doesn't change the fact that things go wrong and you look to your team for guidance or how to get back on the right path.
My dad --just...got me like no other...no one on this planet understood me like my father....so, its just lonely. I dont expect my husband to "get me" like that, he never did, not that deep...so I came to terms with that already. I do expect him to help me tend to the wounds a little though. I know you were being nice in your post and I appreciate it, Iam doing the same. All I can say at the moment is Im thankful for my family and right now the issues I talk about dont seem as big, BUT at that moment a few days ago..it just really hurt...alot.

CandyApples wrote:Im def not using the kid as a excuse,

You want your husband to change. Call it “adapt” if you like, but you want him to change. You want him to meet expectations previously fulfilled by your father.

That requires conversations that for some reason you believe might impact your kiddo. How so? What you imply is that you foresee that your demands that he “adapt” might result in something negative that might impact the kiddo. You might not see it as an “excuse” but there is something in your reasoning that is trying to delay having a conversation with your husband because of the kiddo.

It comes across, whether intended or not, that you expect problems or pushback from your husband. You expect that he won’t just nicely and voluntarily “adapt” to provide you that very minimal validation and caring that he should willingly provide as a loving husband. Why? Why do you expect such problems for what you see as being such a minimal, common sense request?

If it were true that your expectations of his change are so minimal, why does the kiddo have anything to do with this very minor “adaptation” you want? If so minor, it is a conversation between you and hubby and the kiddo has nothing to do with it.

And that’s the rub. It is not true that this is some minor “adaptation” you are seeking. You are kidding yourself when you believe all he must do is make some minimal effort. Your father wasn’t filling some minimal role in your life. And your husband knows this.

Eighteen years ago your husband tried to fill the shoes of your father. Apparently he couldn’t or didn’t do a sufficient job back then as you drifted away from your husband filling the role and relied more on your father. Your husband was not sufficient for you 18 years ago and he isn’t sufficient now.

And now you kid yourself into thinking you only expect him to make what you consider to be minimal adjustments, yet apparently it is such a risk to your relationship that you can’t address it without taking the kiddo into account.

Either your father played a major role as surrogate husband or not. If your father played a major role, then your expectations that your husband now take over that role are major. This would then be a much bigger issue and the kiddo would be an issue.

On the other hand, if your father played a minor surrogate husband role then your expectations are minor and therefore the kiddo would have absolutely nothing to do with this situation.

Which is it?

no, haha the kiddo has nothing to do with the adaptation, infact---actually it would be a huge benefit to her because my husband would be more emotionally mature for both of us. What I meant by it might affect her was, if I decided to up and leave right now, or next year...just pack up and go ...THAT would affect her and is not in her best interest, or mine or my husbands really. So there are times I "feel" like leaving (and I explain this to him, I dont want to per say, but I cant just live out my days feeling like I do)----so, unlike my best friend--who up and leaves when the wind blows the wrong way, I decide to stay ---try and try....bc marriage and love is worth trying, and my family unit is worth trying for --for all our sakes, but when the kid isn't a kid anymore and has a husband of her own, ---and Im still sitting here writing the posts I post about my relationship, then I may choose to up and leave, with little affect on her, compared to if I left now. Thats what I meant. I think any husband, any man that says I do, it should be hard wired into him that you are there for your wife. I just think its very simple. "I had a bad day" response "oh, what happened"....." can you please just sit with me for 5 mins" response "sure what's up" or "yes when Im done with Xyz". " sees wife crying" response "whats wrong"..... " can we spend more time together" response " ok what should we do" or "where is this coming from I think we spend a lot of time together"----ANYTHING but blatant ignoring, brush off or " I dont got time for this" and back on to the video games.

My dad--also was my kiddo's rock, taught her to ride a bike, hugged her often..played with her...my husband, for a while simply did not do this, we would fight over him spending time with her, go paint....just go outside with her. I think he took her to the park 5 times in her 14 years...and that's a stretch. While things are way way better now, I still have to remind him "hey hug your kiddo" or "say good night to her". He loves her more than life, but its things like that --not saying goodnight, not hugging, days not even saying more than a hello...literally....THAT I wish would be more present to myself, and if Im being honest--her as well. She doesn't seem to be so affected..(prob bc I compensate for it) but I simply demand and deserve a little more.. I explained this, he understood.....so again..we will see. Hope this helped.

Candid and folks- due to online school with the kid (and I have her friend with me) Im not on here as much, but will get back to your posts asap!!)

I hope you understand why someone on the outside might be a bit confused.

Your narrative goes something like this...

***
My husband sucks, my husband sucks, my husband sucks. My father rocked, my father rocked, my father rocked.

My husband has treated me and my kiddo like we don't exist for 14 years. My father treated me and the kiddo perfectly.

It is so bad that I am contemplating leaving this man after the kiddo, who does not receive affection from this man like the affection provided by her grandfather, is older.

I only want this man to "adapt" just a little bit.
***

What???? Are you kidding me? Or are you kidding yourself? What am I missing here?

If your father were still here then grandpa would still be playing the role of surrogate husband/father. Now...14 years later you expect a man that took his kid to a park 5 times in 14 years to "adapt" and become some semblance of a different man that is no longer alive?

Why don't you just ask for a zebra to become a horse? If you think that all you expect are simple, minor changes, you are not being honest with yourself. The gap between your father and your husband is no small gap the way you describe things. It is a huge chasm.

I know I must be missing something. Probably I am missing the good aspects of your husband given you have not written about any of them, or I overlooked them somehow.

There is something more going on here, but I'm not sure what exactly. I can't figure out why or how you went down the road of allowing this man to only take his daughter to a park 5 times in 14 years? How did YOU allow that to happen?

In other words, why now after 14 years? Did you not have the confidence to confront your husband previously...like 13 years ago?

You could have left this man on year 1, year 2, year 3. It's not like you didn't see that he was a zebra and not a horse. So you allowed it to drag on and on and on, because your father stepped up to play husband? You didn't have the strength to leave this man that apparently has no real redeeming qualities?

What do you think happened? Why did you stay for so long?

I think I understand where the op is coming from because you sound like my mother. She's in her 80's now and still hopes my dad will change in to the man she needs/deserves/expects... the fact he's never been that way is complex but a fact nevertheless. She craves affection that isn't there and everytime she thinks he will change she sets herself up for rejection and hurt. However, she keeps on hoping. I told her 40 years ago to leave but then she believed in her vows. When she was 60 she couldn't leave because where would she go? How would she start again etc.. now it's too late to go. She's stuck and is now bitter and resentful. As the child in all this I wish she'd have gone along time ago. Financially she's solid but emotionally she's very needy and he's never shown her he needs her, so the circle goes round and round. If you stay you risk an unhappy child. You leave, she's also sad but will adapt. It's not like she's going to miss his involvement or attention is it?
Best wishes

Thanks for your thoughts tokeless. Something about the child adapting resonates.

Your mother, like the op places the expectation on the father to adapt. The OP doesn’t need to adapt, the child doesn’t need to adapt, but the father must adapt.

I see it as some twisted form of “justice” or “fairness” that CandyApples believes she deserves or has earned. It is a theme in her threads about the external world, other people in some sense “owe” her the “minor” changes see seeks.

And I do not disregard that viewpoint. Wouldn’t it be nice if the world worked that way. Wouldn’t it have been nice if your father had adapted for your mother however she wished. Now she is 80 and SHE never adapted, but instead kept insisting that in the fair play of life that your father adapt.

When will CandyApples, if ever, recognize she must adapt to this man? When will she learn that her daughter is young and it is a good age to teach her about adapting versus expecting others to adapt?

I just find it difficult to understand, but your mothers experience helps.

I've exhausted myself trying to explain that my dad doesn't see anything wrong with how he is. It's my mother who has 'the problem' but she is incapable of accepting that because it's like giving in and admitting defeat which she can't or won't do. This is all about the OP really and that's not blaming her but she is avoiding the decision to leave because she thinks he may change, her kiddo is too young yet or other. I have had to witness two, or maybe just one unhappy person living for 40 years. I have come to the conclusion that my mum can't change so I have to in order to be available for her. I have stopped trying to find the solution for her because she wouldn't want it anyway.

tokeless wrote: As the child in all this I wish she'd have gone along time ago.

Probably the most helpful response on this thread -- except that if CandyApples actually wanted to go, she'd be gone already without the online debate. It was probably the same for your mother.

My dad's death had the opposite (albeit indirect) effect on me. I got back to the husband from whom I'd been separated more than four years.

CandyApples wrote:I decide to stay ---try and try....bc marriage and love is worth trying, and my family unit is worth trying for

You try and try, but what you try is to change your husband to get what you want, in direct opposition to what he wants.

I think any husband, any man that says I do, it should be hard wired into him that you are there for your wife.

But what does that mean, exactly? From memory, "I do" is about as far as it goes, with (mercifully!) nothing about specific behaviours such as cuddles and flattery. If your husband were to do what you require of him, you would have the "do" without the "I", because that isn't who he is.

To me, marriage is a contract between two people who have agreed to accept each other as a separate "I" with whatever needs, behaviours and quirks are in place. Every couple knows that the contract is subject to change, or rather that "I" and "thou" will grow and change, because that's what life is.

As much as you believe he signed up to "be there" for you, he has the right to believe you will be equally sensitive to what he wants. That includes being able to enter the front door without facing immediate demands for praise and flattery.

As the one who identifies more with his position than yours, an important factor in my marriage is that my husband is deaf. It's easy for me to get from front door to my room without him knowing I'm home. It would be insupportable if he was in my face before I had time to 'be at home', and our marriage works much better if I go to him rather than the other way round. That's why I advised you (and still advise you) to let him come to you.

I just think its very simple. "I had a bad day" response "oh, what happened"....." can you please just sit with me for 5 mins" response "sure what's up" ...

Absolutely.... unless it's always the same one of the couple who expects instant empathy, and he or she needs it practically every day, or even several times in one day, and the other half of the couple has different needs that are consistently ignored because the one needing so much careful attention doesn't even think to put him- or herself in the other party's place.

What are you going to do, hand him a script?

While things are way way better now, I still have to remind him "hey hug your kiddo" or "say good night to her".

Yes, you already have. Many times. My husband also tells me what to do, usually but not always for practical purposes. Because we came late to marriage, the power struggle is likely to go on for a while yet. There's the shock of realising "this person is separate from me, and not an extension of me", followed by attempts at makeover and, ideally, understanding and compromise.

The Mars and Venus stuff by John Gray has been criticised and ridiculed, but his basic premise makes sense to me.

One example is men's complaint that if they offer solutions to problems that women bring up in conversation, the women are not necessarily interested in solving those problems, but mainly want to talk about them. ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Are_f ... from_Venus

I think we can see as much in this thread.

He loves her more than life...

Ugh. My literary self and my literal self object to this nonsense everywhere I see it. No one loves anything more than life. It isn't possible, unless you mean that your husband would run into a burning building to save the kiddo. No doubt he would -- but he would expect to survive himself, and would stop short at an impenetrable wall of flame.

I object to cliches, especially when applied to human emotion. To me it makes you seem insincere if you can't find words of your own to use.

I simply demand and deserve a little more.

You demand, but from what you write it's doubtful you deserve. The question is whether you want specific behaviours, or the man you married.