freaked out

jimmyh wrote: I am sticking my neck out and daring you to chop it off. I confidently predict that you cannot actually argue against any of the things I just said, and I'm not even sure you can bring yourself to deny any of them either.

Jimmy, thanks for the offer to try and chop of your head. I appreciate your confidence about how a person should feel in my situation.

I politely decline your offer jimmy, because I don’t care. I have no desire or need to prove you wrong jimmy. Enjoy.

I appreciate your confidence about how a person should feel in my situation.

And “would”. And “does”.

I politely decline your offer jimmy, because I don’t care.

This is also demonstrably false, and has been demonstrated.

Okay jimmy

Enjoy your hypothetical dinner party. I hope it isn’t a cash bar. I forgot my hypothetical wallet, how embarrassing!

Now, now Boys none of this quarrelling!

[/quote]
Heh, I’m still not following. What about “involuntariness”, exactly?

Hey Jimmy the actual post on involuntariness actually came from Ahimsa Addressed to you on page 5 of this post. That is where my confusion came in I saw your name and presumed it was you writing. (my bad)

Quote from Ahimsa:

Hypnotizable subjects' perceptions of involuntariness are generally consistent with their perceptions of how hypnotized subjects respond to hypnotic suggestions. Subjects' identification of their actions as involuntary is motivated largely by their desire to have the experiences called for by hypnotic communications, to please the hypnotist, and to experience modifications in consciousness and behavior.[quote]

Which I believe I answered somewhere on page 6. I hope that clears up the confusion. and P.S. Did you address that point above back to Ahimsa?

Thank you for your time and patience.
PPs Sorry Moonlightress didn't realise you were a girl like me. My apologies for calling you a He!

ahimsa42 wrote:actually, these discussions here and my own investigations have recently led me to have several sessions with a hypnotist to help solve some personal issues. i am pleased with the results and am considering continuing to investigate self hypnosis on my own.

i even brought up the idea of trying name amnesia and forgetting numbers with them and they of course are willing to do so (if i pay for it of course) but since i would only be going into it with the intent for it not to happen it would likely, as you said, be a complete waste of $. i also saw how the reporter in the BBC documentary so easily resisted the suggestions she was given. i guess you could say that i am no longer "freaked out" about this anymore but i am still unable to comprehend how & why people are so willing to fool themselves so completely or why it would be entertaining to do so.

Hi again ahimsa

I hope you're still following your thread despite the noise. I was glad to hear you'd had hypnotherapy with good results and that you're no longer "freaked out" as you mentioned in your original post, but confident you could resist any suggestions you did not want to accept.

I wanted to pick up on what you said about considering continuing to investigate self hypnosis on your own. I can highly recommend this. I know I spoke about having some fun with recreational hypnosis, but 98% of the hypnosis I do is in the non-recreational arena - mostly meditation-like spiritual exploration but sometimes with sleep and self-improvement themes. I mostly listen to tapes or YouTube audios, but sometimes, if there is something specific in my life I want to address, I write and read it into the dictaphone app on my phone. I put myself in trance and then play it. I find this easier than trying to direct myself while in trance. I'm also on a hypnosis subforum on a spiritual forum. There are so many serious-minded applications for hypnosis and since you are able to go into trance for therapeutic purposes, the ideal next step is self-hypnosis, where you can decide on the content yourself.

If you use YouTube audios, I'd recommend you first listen to them out of trance (just skip over the induction) to make sure the content is acceptable and in line with your purpose. There is altogether too much rubbish out there. Michael Sealey's YT channel is a good and trustworthy one.

You may have left the thread already - hopefully you are pursuing this avenue and having success. I wish you all the best with it. If you don't see this, I hope, at least, that others do and investigate self-hypnosis.

PS. It's free.

thanks Moonlightress. i have been reading many more research papers on this subject which i have found on the internet. it seems that the issues i have brought up are very highly contentious and that there are no globally accepted answers. in addition, i have come to the conclusion that the perceived loss of control & involuntary aspects are both better & worse than i had previously thought them.

everything i have read strongly indicates that it is imperative for subjects to intentionally allocate their mental resources in order to ignore evidence that reality is different from the way the hypnotist is suggesting it is. the stronger the evidence (such as physical sensations), the more the subject must willingly ignore whatever conflicts with the suggestion they were given in order to comply. although this is an example of the tremendous power of the mind, it also shows that the people who are able to reach this state are also totally invested in wanting to believe what they are told. there is no issue of resistance as the subjects, despite what they may appear to do or say, are doing the exact opposite of resisting. much of it is apparently due to the expectations of the subject as to what hypnosis is and role playing along with a social conformity aspect. without these these things, suggestions things like name & number amnesia, loss of control of one's limbs and all the other common examples are actually quite flimsy and very easily ignored, even when hypnotized, by those not willing to buy into them. the same goes for so called post hypnotic suggestions such as the Feynman example that Jimmy brought up.

i still cannot conceive of anyone wanting to be induced into such a state of illusion and unreality but as i said previously i am no longer concerned about the idea of being manipulated being my control. it does make me continue to question the overall mental awareness of those who do choose to accept suggestions though as the fact that they are willingly doing so but are choosing to not be aware that they are is a form of self deception of epic proportions imo.

as far as self hypnosis, thanks for sharing your personal experiences with it. i have started listening to some MP3's and i do find them helpful. if anything, it is a good way to relax & tune out for a while. i have tried many of the forget your name, can't open your eyes, hands stuck together one's on youtube without even a hint of them working-although i guess that's not really surprising. i'll check out some of the other one's you mentioned sometime too so thanks for the suggestions.

ahimsa42 wrote:
i still cannot conceive of anyone wanting to be induced into such a state of illusion and unreality but as i said previously i am no longer concerned about the idea of being manipulated being my control. it does make me continue to question the overall mental awareness of those who do choose to accept suggestions though as the fact that they are willingly doing so but are choosing to not be aware that they are is a form of self deception of epic proportions imo.

People that take LSD or travel to the Amazon to experience the mental hallucinations of ayahuasca...It is not for me. Mind altering substances are not what I wish to experience, but I can understand, I can conceive of people hoping to get something out of the experience. Every year people die seeking visions or mind warping sensations that in one form or another they believe to benefit them in some way.

Hypnosis, no one dies. There is no lasting chemically induced brain damage. I can understand given your original post the fear of losing control, but in comparison to mind altering substances hypnosis is mild.

I’m not saying for you personally, but if you can you conceive of people taking the LSD or ayahuasca risk, then hypnosis is not necessarily difficult to understand. There are similar underlying motivations, in that the person is trying to solve some issue or seeking some benefit through the liberation of their mind.

this is true Richard but think the difference between mind altering drugs & hypnosis would be the interaction with the other person-i.e. hypnotist. even though, like you, i am not interested in experiencing substances such as LSD, DMT or ayahuasca, in these cases the element of having one's actions dictated by another person (as illusionary as it actually is now that i understand the experience much better) are not relevant. i.e. in the case of drugs one may experience hallucinations but they are not dictated by anyone other than yourself.

i think it is this seeming loss of autonomy of watching people under hypnosis do silly, irrational actions made me cringe so much in the past. i may be able to understand wanting to escape/expand one's mind but can never understand wanting to buy into someone else's reality so fully that you would accept whatever they say as true despite all evidence to the contrary.

ahimsa42 wrote:... the difference between mind altering drugs & hypnosis would be the interaction with the other person- i.e. in the case of drugs one may experience hallucinations but they are not dictated by anyone other than yourself.

Good point. Does this then mean you have no fear of self hypnosis?

The reason I ask, is it seems like hypnosis then is less the issue than it is another person in control of what happens. It is distrust of others. It is the fear of the possibility another person will take advantage of you, regardless of method.

Take a drug intentionally to alter your mind verses a drug slipped into your drink by another person as to be taken advantage of. The mind altering effects then are less the issue, and instead it is the distrust of others.

correct-i have been experiencing self hypnosis and have zero concerns about it. i consider it a form of meditation which i have done in a different form for quite a while now.

i'm not certain if it could be considered a matter of distrust of others or not, although it is very likely a factor. i have not delved deeply enough into my control issues to know if this is the deciding factor but will have to contemplate it now that you have brought it up. i think it may be more about the lack of critical thinking and the idea of doing illogical, unreasonable, irrational actions, despite how benign or harmless they may be, to which i have such a strong aversion of. perhaps it comes back to the issue of truth vs falsehoods. hence my extreme feelings of embarrassment watching subjects willingly perform silly,obviously voluntary but which they consider involuntary, acts under hypnosis.

your drink analogy is accurate too. i would still not be interested in losing control by intentionally taking a mind altering substance (even though it seem that this is exactly the reason why people decide to use them), but it is worlds apart from being forced or tricked into doing so. it's a huge violation of personal choice & autonomy, perhaps similar to how rape is a violation of one's physical & sexual autonomy. i would also feel very strongly against being forced to take any drug-for take for example anti-depressents which are forced upon people i know when they have been institutionalized due to mental struggles-as i have not ingested anything stronger than an asprin for over 20 years.

Welcome to the boards I think most of us here had pretty much the same feeling of being freaked out when first receiving the numbers. After seeing the 11:11 prompt for months, I was in a bookstore and Georges book fell off the shelf at my feet. Upon seeing the 11:11 on the cover I was especially freaked out Of course I had to buy that book

When finished and seeing the website, I came to the boards and asked, Now what do I do?

Geoff responded, Well, thats up to you. How frustrating was that? All I wanted was someone to tell me what to do next He was right though, because it really is an individual journey. What would I have missed had I not flailed about, stumbling and falling down again and again, thirstily searching for my own truth?

Welcome to the flail

Love,
Kim