People get angry at me when I argue with them

Hamming wrote:Btw I am arguing now with you.

Precisely. And the minute I realised it, I lost all interest in interacting with you as I prefer to have a conversation or at least a dialogue as opposed to an argument.

That is your big issue in life, that is what you feel is important to discuss?

I felt its important, because I feel bad when we play by the rule he said, and not even considering my. My rule is nonsense

For him it looks unimportant I believe so.

Instead, every time you open your mouth about an insignificant issue you think you are protecting your respect. What respect do you really believe you hold? Currently people know that when you open your mouth that the words that come out will be about some trivial item not worthy of their time.

I do not hold much respect, I know. I am trying to get respect. Probably as you point out I try in a wrong way.

And then those teachings - be confident, be yourself, do not care what others think is worthless if you try to be yourself (talk the way you are used to) and gain disrespect. It does not make sense.

I see you Richard are specialist, so it makes me believe more in what you tell. Thanks.

Now still its the hard part to find out what is important and what is not.

For example I remember we discussing with colleague about how the task at work should be done correctly. I was telling the way I do is correct, he is telling its incorrect. Loudly so other workers could hear and think how bad worker I am. Next time even the boss who pays me money could hear. And I defend this. And we get angry at each other, and I gave up. I felt still angry and sad and he felt he won. When I was back home, I even asked other specialists is it the right way the way I do task, and they confirmed its the right way. So I was put down, while I was good. The director who does not know how the task should be done because he is not specialist might think I am bad and this is bad for a career.
So is this important? If I had not given up, he would have been even more angry at me so it sucks to work with guy at same job who is angry, but it also sucks that I am treated as so bad worker which I am not in that situation.


I think I can learn like a robot to not argue on unimportant things for other people. But the harder part is - how to feel happy when you want to say back but you cannot? It probably feels like I am communicating only for the value of having good friend but not because it is a lot of fun.

Precisely. And the minute I realised it, I lost all interest in interacting with you as I prefer to have a conversation or at least a dialogue as opposed to an argument.

But that way I found out the information. How else I would have found out?

Is there difference between conversation, dialogue and argument?

Hamming wrote:
Now still its the hard part to find out what is important and what is not.

Very simple. Ask yourself one question. Will any person other than myself give a damn 7 years from now?

If the answer is no, it is not important.

Will anyone other than you give a damn about your basketball rule 7 years from now? No. So it isn't important.

Will anyone other than you give a damn about your other way of doing work 7 years from now? No. So it isn't important.

Will anyone other than you give a damn 7 years from now if you argue to keep a community center open or have a plan to reduce crime or you have concerns regarding a family members choices that will send their life along a dangerous path? Yes! 7 years from now other people might be impacted by theses things, other people 7 years later will be living the impacts. Those are important things.

It is a simple rule to follow. When the answer is no...which it will be about 95% of the time, you just shut up. It is not important.

Let me try it. Seven years from now will this conversation mean anything to anyone other than me? Yes. It may mean something to you, it may help you and it may help others dealing with the same issue. It may help you and even if it does nothing to help you, it may help others understand better how to avoid wasting time over something so trivial as a basketball rule.

wow. I think this is a big thing in my life if I try and if it works. I have to try to implement it since you and my friend also told similarly. And its interesting why years after years nobody told that. S toping making people angry might increase the amount of friends and so the confidence that I am able to speak to people. And all other stuff I was trying might not be that significant comparing what I found out in this thread.

They get angry, I feel like beta because because I cannot be angry back at them, it looked not fair from my point of view. Then I feel so powerless.

Also at childhood I got some advices how to be respected - to hit, beat people. But I am skinny and if I try to hit I would have gotten back. Also this advice was bit weird, because some people were not hitting anyone but still were respected.

It will be hard to implement psychologically I guess. But need to try. Otherwise maybe nothing can help if that is only way. Unless grow a lot of muscles and hit those who are angry and so next time they would not be angry and respect me

Oh, and its interesting. When I am silent, telling nothing with the new people, then people are telling to talk more, etc. I am silent because I am afraid that I might make people angry, I do not know how new people react to me. Once I start being not silent, then I make people angry and I need to go back to being silent again Some people do not get angry so with those are easy. But not many % of people are patient.

And also one thing - after asking myself if it will be important for him after 7 years, and filtering 95 % of stuff, what will we talk then. This also might be a challenge.

there like mirror, if all of you friends talk like this on you. so there are something wrong on you

Hamming wrote:Is there difference between conversation, dialogue and argument?

Ok. You see your last post where you respond to Richard? There's no argumentative attitude in that. You are not daring or challenging. You are open to consider. You are having a conversation. You talk and you listen and you aren't trying to prove your point at whatever the cost. You see him as...what word did you use? A specialist? For whatever reason, you have a level of respect for the person. I think that is the reason you are capable of having a conversation.

Often there will be people who will not elicit the feeling of respect in you. But if you do not find a way to respect people, you will not be able to get on with them. You don't have to like them, but every encounter offers you an opportunity to learn something new, to experience something new and learn from that experience. If you respect that fact, you will be less likely to argue.

Dialogue to me is a form of a diffused argument. You have your opinion, I disagree with it wholeheartedly, but I am willing to genuinely listen to you, hear you out and try to understand where you are coming from. You offer me the same courtesy. We stay polite and respectful. I don't fight to prove my point, I offer you an opportunity to hear me out and consider it in the hope you will accept it, but you might as well offer something that might change my mind. I'm putting my ego aside and I stay open to possibilities.

Good luck in figuring out all the ins and outs. You have the curiosity, I'm sure you'll get there.

thank you. Yea, I have the curiosity, just taking bit too long to find things out. Its so good at least that I live in times where I have internet and can ask any question I can think of which I would not be able to ask live people or get wrong answers from those people who I ask.

so it seems like your issue is:

when you don't voice your opinion, you feel weak. like you're afraid to speak because others might rebuke you. when you do speak your mind, you feel that you do get rebuked. & you do then go silent & feel shamed & judged.

which leads to:
a) how to make it so that others don't rebuke you or get angry with you while disagreeing with them
b) how to not go into your shell when people do get angry at you.
c) you mentioned that you feel good when you are "right" and bad when you are "wrong"

other things you mentioned
d) feeling it's unfair that others treat people in this way. that you would never treat people in this way. why do people act this way?
e) the idea that it is tiring to discuss things with someone who disagrees & over-analyzes everything
f) women that enslave men. i assume romantically? although perhaps not only this.


a) again, this can be solved using diplomacy like i said. the term disagreement is a problem in and of itself. language & choice of words can be so important i find. so even though you have a differing opinion, you don't need to have a disagreement about it. there are more effective ways to influence people. read "how to win friends and influence people" like wondergurl suggested. that book is excellent.


b) the issue here is identifying with opinions. identifying with beliefs & statements. when someone criticizes a statement or belief that we identify with, we feel that they are actually criticizing our very identity. so if you don't identify or own beliefs & avoid occupying fixed positions, then it is easier to process criticism of ideas.

so if you say "what do you think of this idea?" rather than "i think we should do this", there is a difference in how you will feel if the idea is criticized. the i is quite key.

also again the language used. notice the difference between "that idea is the worst idea ever". and "i disagree with that idea because of x". or even "i prefer idea y over idea x because of a." so if we try to avoid using hyperbole when we're criticizing, then it becomes easier to process for the other.

but, i guess not everyone is going to be careful when having a difference of opinion so maybe an idea to try for yourself if someone says something a bit over the top is just to reframe & untangle that in your own head to something more palatable.


c) well yes but remember that if you feel bad when you are wrong & "lose", then other people probably feel the same way. it's kind of a win-lose scenario rather than win-win.


d) oftentimes people just act this way out of habit. people do most things out of habit without thinking too much. it does also signal a lack of respect. a lot of behavioral things are just an outwards manifestation of how you feel deep-down about a person. or they can just be a habit.


e) yes possibly. especially if it feels like you either aren't understanding what they're saying, or you're being disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable.

it's possible that you may be a nit-picker. i actually found i have a little bit of a problem myself around this area. when someone says something that i agree with in general, i often can't say to them "oh yes i agree", i have to go "yes, but.." and nit-pick their remark which doesn't quite match up with how i see things. & i've felt it from the other side too & it feels somehow unsatisfying. like the other person just needs to have the last say. or just needs to accrue victories where they are right and you are wrong. anyhow, i'm trying to be a bit better with this and just be a bit more agreeable in general.

and awareness is the first step.


f) so we can blame the woman in this scenario if we want. but that's kind of a perpetual victimhood thing people do.

no-one is forcing him to stay with her. no-one is forcing him to meekly surrender to her every time she verbally assaults him. in a way, by meekly surrendering to her each time, by staying with her all this time, he is teaching her "this behavior is ok. it's fine to treat me like i'm nothing." probably he actually thinks very little of himself which somehow gets transferred to how she thinks of him. so there's a bit of a symbiotic or circular way of things.

note that i don't mean to blame him either. i actually struggle with this a bit too. i'm used to people being nice & respecting others so i don't quite know what to do when there's a jerk who just tramples over everyone. usually my strategy is just to try to cut that person out of my life but that's not always possible & not a solution for the moment when they are actually taking advantage of you. i think what is probably needed is assertiveness & even some aggression to say "hey no, that's not ok."

thanks.

read "how to win friends and influence people" like wondergurl suggested.

Today I started reading this book, read about 20 pages, looks interesting.

well yes but remember that if you feel bad when you are wrong & "lose", then other people probably feel the same way.

It feels from all of this that I have to be nice to people even if they are wrong. To make them feel good even if they are wrong and annoying me by being wrong but thinking that I am wrong.

I believe I win friends this way more likely. Its bettter than nothing. And probably then I choose from those friends which I like the most, which are really right, and are able to prove me that they are right, and not because I let them to be right.

Hamming wrote:
It feels from all of this that I have to be nice to people even if they are wrong. To make them feel good even if they are wrong and annoying me by being wrong but thinking that I am wrong.

I believe I win friends this way more likely. Its bettter than nothing. And probably then I choose from those friends which I like the most, which are really right, and are able to prove me that they are right, and not because I let them to be right.

yes i think that's part of it. learning how to disagree gracefully. that's a struggle for me too.

also rather than "others are wrong" another way to phrase things is "others see things from a different perspective". and then see if you can see things from that perspective. then you don't even have to agree with that way of thinking. simply understanding may be enough. ie you both see things from a different perspective & neither of you has to be wrong. just 2 different people with 2 different genetic code & 2 different experiences & views on life.

also rather than "others are wrong" another way to phrase things is "others see things from a different perspective". and then see if you can see things from that perspective. then you don't even have to agree with that way of thinking. simply understanding may be enough. ie you both see things from a different perspective & neither of you has to be wrong. just 2 different people with 2 different genetic code & 2 different experiences & views on life.

yea, read more than half of this book, and it looks like you tell like in that book.

So their perspective is wrong

I remember examples in the book about some killers. They did not admit they are wrong by killing people. So from their perspective its good to kill people

ok yes you're right hamming and he's wrong. continue on your merry way and see how that goes for you.

Most people do not have the strength of self, the self-assurance, to accept that someone is point blank opposing their ideas. Therefore, most people will bristle at being told that they are wrong. How about you?

Therefore, most people will bristle at being told that they are wrong. How about you?

I try to find points which make me not wrong. If I do not find the points, then I can easily accept that I am wrong.

Also when somebody is saying that I am wrong without facts which make me believe I am wrong, then I do not agree that I am wrong. Then I start discussing to understand and then they get angry

But now after reading this book how to win friends I try to avoid argueing and let them be right even if they are 100 % wrong. Because book told so. I wan to see how it goes. It still makes me annoyed when I cannot tell what I think, but at least maybe them make not annoyed and in the long term I have friends.

For example today I discussed with a friend. He said harsh words: "but nothing you could apply right? but the ego thing you are applying all the time in your life right?"

I know of course its not nothing. I apply some things which he says. And I know he also listened this audio book. So it was even bit funny, because it looks like he is not applying what he heard from the book. So I just write back to him with a smile: "right "

I agree with what Richard@Decisionskills has said about choosing when it's worth giving an opinion, and when it's something trivial so does not matter.

However, when I read your post, other questions came to mind. I don't feel we have a complete picture here. Does everyone or any one else tend to get angry with you when you express your opinion? Or does it just happen with this friend?

If this happens a lot with various people, then I would advise considering how you are communicating with people. Perhaps you communicate in a way that rubs people up the wrong way. Do you give your views aggressively or keep repeating a point over again? Or do you come across in a mocking or condescending way? Do you make big things out of little things? It is worth thinking about this carefully, because self-awareness and the ability to adjust your own behaviour is an impressive trait.

However, some people attract pushy, opinionated friends who do not like to be contradicted. If people (or this particular friend) perceives you as weak in some way, or knows that you will not contradict them, they may choose to hang out with you for those reasons. Some people like to always be 'right' and don't like others to disagree with them. I have met people like this (in fact, some family members). Like you said, it can be a waste of time trying to have any discussion with them as they are usually very set in their ways, have set ideas and just get annoyed when you express something that does not fit in with their vision. I also just keep quiet, disagree in my head and just try to view them as quite limited. Usually, if you stand up to a friend who is like this, they will cool off the friendship, because it no longer suit them - they don't want to hang around with someone who makes them question themselves as they can't cope with any perceived criticism (look up narcissistic personality traits). If your friend is like this, they are unlikely to change and the friendship will carry on this way, unless you choose to break it off or regularly disagree with them, (so they end it anyway).

Ideally you should be able to have calm discussions with others, where neither person raises their voice or puts the other down.