Help: telling the difference between somnambulism and sleep?

**Posts:** 11 · by **eternaldreamer** » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:06 pm

Hi all!

Ok so this is a topic I have spent hours and hours trying to look up online but either my search criteria sucked or there's not much definitive out there about this. And I realize that hypnotists themselves probably disagree so, I'm trying to be patient haha. But, hopefully one of you kind folks can help me! Because I'm 3 days in to a program for ultra depth/somnambulism and I want to make sure I know what I'm looking for (and, if i'm already there, that I don't accidentally miss it!)

How do I/will I tell the difference between entering/being in the somnambulism/ultra deep state versus just falling or starting to fall asleep?

I have heard somnambulism described as 'blacking out'. That is, you don't really remember what was/is occuring at the time and then after a while you wake up when you're told to wake up. And you thus can conclude "oh wow I was in really deep!" That would be great if that is the case! Although I haven't had that happen quite that way, and I've only been practicing for 3 days so, I guess I might just have to be patient!

BUT, and here's my confusion: I DO have moments where my brain wanders and imagery comes to mind before my attention is suddenly brought back to the voice of the hypnotist. During those moments (which I've termed Thought Deviation in my journal), I have no memory of what the hypnotist was saying, what the instructions are/were, and whether they were successful. My mind drifts outside my control and my consciousness seems to grow fuzzy and kind of disappear. Honestly, it's a lot like when I'm falling asleep. Except obviously I DONT fall fully asleep, because after a short time (few seconds, few minutes), my mind will suddenly 'awaken' at a key word or when the hypnotist starts the next deepener.

I should note that the deepening method is following the Larry Elman method more or less (that's the name right?). And that the goal is to listen to this deepener (which also includes isochronic beats, take it or leave it) for 1-2 weeks with the goal of training your brain to go into somnambulism/ultra depth. And the instructions are to switch over to a different track once I start having 'blackouts' (again, because they are theoretically the indicator that I've gone into somnambulism).

So, PLEASE HELP! lol. I'm really excited for this process and I can be really patient when I want to, but I have to make sure I know what the 'goal' I'm looking for is. I don't mind this taking more than 2 weeks, or even 2 months, as long as I have a way to realize when I've gone into somnambulism successfully.

So. Are those 'Thought Deviation' moments somnambulism? Is it just me starting to fall asleep?

If it's the former...why are they so short/shallow that I get my attention back to the hypnotist right after?
If it's the latter, what can I do to keep from falling asleep?

**Posts:** 135 · by **saladinsmith** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:38 pm

Dave Elman, I think.

The easiest way to tell if you're actually being hypnotized is with a "convincer"--something that you wouldn't experience if you weren't being hypnotized. My favorite is to have the subject forget his name. It works for pretty much everyone who's actually in trance, and it's something that never happens except in hypnosis.

Of course that works much better with a live hypnotist than it does with recordings. You are working with recordings, right?

**Posts:** 11 · by **eternaldreamer** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:17 pm

I am indeed using recordings.
And the recording(s) doesnt really contain a convincer like that...I believe the intended 'convincer?'' IS the blackouts.

Im not necceaarily against editing the audio file to add in my own convincer but I would be afraid that would break my hypnosis.

Today during my practice I may indeed have blacked out...I remember nothing from about 12 minutes in until about 40 minutes later, although I do vaguely have a sense that I "came to" for a few moments in the middle to hear a specific instruction. When my consciousness returned it was the middle of the final deepener and from that to awakening, I remained in trance but a bit lighter.

Was I just asleep though? Seeing as I dont remember anything in between.

Again I dont mind this taking a while but I also dont want to be just sleeping away my hypnosis practice lol

**Posts:** 135 · by **saladinsmith** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:43 am

Unfortunately, I don't know of any way to tell for sure except to see if the suggestions are working.

Or I suppose you could use some sort of biofeedback monitor, and see if the results you're getting match the results you get when you're sleeping. That's still not 100% though, because the monitor night not register a difference between sleep and trance.

**Posts:** 11 · by **eternaldreamer** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:51 am

Well, tomorrow I'll try sitting up on the sofa instead and see if that works.

If I get the same results I know it's not sleep (because I can't sleep sitting up). If not, then I guess I move hypnosis to the couch lol

**Posts:** 11 · by **eternaldreamer** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:23 pm

Alright so I tried the couch last night.

I also did it right before going to bed so that I'd maximize my sleepiness (and thus see how much was related to just time of day vs bed/couch.

This time my mind did wander a little bit for just a few moments in-between deepeners, but just near the end of the audio. Otherwise I was aware the whole time and although I did forget what I was feeling/thinking specifically, I remember hearing every deepener (and when my mind did wander it was just during breaks or talking in-between, and I'd come back to attention when the next deepener started). Thus I'm chalking-up my mind wandering to being tired, but clearly the couch helped. We'll see if I have the same result(s) today.

It just means that 4 days in and I still have not gone into somnambulism/had blackouts. Hmm. I wonder why?

**Posts:** 135 · by **saladinsmith** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:07 pm

Well, in my case, I think I have trouble because of ADHD. If that's the case for you, medication may help. Beyond that, I don't know.

**Posts:** 11 · by **eternaldreamer** » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:05 pm

So, current progress:

Over the last couple days I've switched to sitting on a couch (instead of lying in bed) and also have been trying to practice earlier in the day.

Yesterday was quite unique, but I have to temper my expectation with the reality that I was already tired (didn't get much sleep the night before).

Right from the first induction I started feeling quite relaxed and 'deep'. My mind started to drift between sentences but I kept 'pulling it back' to focus on the hypnotist's words. However, from about 5 minutes in to the last deepener I have no memory. I have the vague sense that at least at first my mind was wandering, but nothing after that. I 'came to' at the start of the final deepener, and then my mind began to drift again until suddenly the awakener began. Unlike previous sessions I was 'aware' and paying attention as soon as the awakener started (at number 10). Usually if my mind is drifting I become more aware at number 8 or 7. So that was unique.

But I'm not quite sure whether I just fell asleep or was simply very deep. I was quite tired, but also had enough awareness to be forcibly paying attention to the hypnotist's words.

Today I'm going to try immediately after lunch and see if that makes a difference. I also got a ton of sleep last night. So we'll see what happens.

**Posts:** 1435 · by **jargan** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:20 am

It's generally said that if you "come back" at moments that, more or less, coincide with awakening sequences, you're almost certainly not asleep.

Side note: somnambulism doesn't mean that you "black out". It can happen, but it's not at all necessary.

If you ask me, your best bet is to not worry too much about the details... either way, your mind is always listening and with this stuff it's having plenty of opportunities to discover how to give you trance states and various great experiences related to them. Obviously, not all of this (for people who are having trouble understanding it, make that "almost none of this") will happen inside your conscious awareness, so at least for some of your progress you won't become aware of it until much later. The trick is to keep going anyway.

**Posts:** 11 · by **eternaldreamer** » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:33 am

Hey Jargan!

Thanks for the help

That is good info and good to know. I suppose I will continue on with the next steps and see if it 'takes'. That would be the true test I suppose eh?

**Posts:** 11 · by **eternaldreamer** » Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:28 pm

Actually I have another question for you guys

I have heard that positive/negative hallucination is one way to 'test' for somnambulism.
Does that have to be guided for it to count as a test?

Several times while listening to these sessions I have experienced positive auditory hallucinations. Specifically, the hypnosis using my name (which obviously, they don't, and I've verified it by re-listening to just that portion). For example, one of the deepeners may say "You are now feeling very drowsy, and I'm going to count to 10...", but what I hear is "Mike is now feeling very drowsy...". I know that IS a positive hallucination, but Im wondering if that is itself an indicator of somnambulism? The only reason I ask is because obviously the (recorded) hypnotist's voice is not TRYING to get my to hear my own name.

**Posts:** 135 · by **saladinsmith** » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:12 am

That's an interesting thought. I've had hallucinations on many occasions, usually immediately before and after sleep. I wonder if it was somnambulism. It might be the same state.

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