my now-former close friend

Candid wrote:

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:This is why you don't like your own species... ?

Stopped reading here.

I'm not sure why. As you said you are mainly an observer. And based on everything you have posted it is hard to argue that you are pro homo sapien. You criticize homo sapiens for having children. All you have posted is doom and gloom about the evils and havoc brought on the world by this immoral creature, the homo sapien. It is not then a stretch to make the observation that you are not very fond of homo sapiens.

And you are a homo sapien.

I like homo sapiens. I see all the positive things the species brings to the stage. I see the positive spirit, the compassion, the desire to conserve nature, the way our species is uniquely conflicted about our expansion and treatment of other species. No other species gives a #$%^. Only humanity.

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The FIVE QUESTIONS

-1- Is there any means by which any number of individuals can delegate to someone else the moral right to do something which none of the individuals have the moral right to do themselves?


-2- Do those who wield political power (presidents, legislators, etc.) have the moral right to do things which other people do not have the moral right to do? If so, from whom and how did they acquire such a right?


-3- Is there any process (e.g., constitutions, elections, legislation) by which human beings can transform an immoral act in to moral act (without changing the act itself)?


-4- When law-makers and law-enforcers use coercion and force in the name of law and government, do they bear the same responsibility for their actions that anyone else would who did the same thing on his own?


-5- When there is a conflict between an individual’s own moral conscience, and the commands of a political authority, is the individual morally obligated to do what he personally views as wrong in order to “obey the law”?

quietvoice wrote:-3- Is there any process (e.g., constitutions, elections, legislation) by which human beings can transform an immoral act in to moral act (without changing the act itself)?

*transform an immoral act into a moral act*

quietvoice wrote:

quietvoice wrote:-3- Is there any process (e.g., constitutions, elections, legislation) by which human beings can transform an immoral act in to moral act (without changing the act itself)?

*transform an immoral act into a moral act*

We transform immoral acts into moral acts all the time.

Ending the life of another human is most often considered immoral. We transform this act via various processes into being moral all the time, e.g. war, capital punishment, euthanasia, religious justifications, etc. We may label these acts slightly different, calling the act killing rather than murder, but the behavior and outcomes are the same.

I'd include extrajudicial killings in to that list. The act of deciding without legal process to kill someone is labelled the right thing to do, but when terrorists do it, our rulers condemn them. To continue with the war on drugs whilst the rich or celebrity classes snort cocaine at parties is immoral in my view. Michael Lavene's book 'The big white lie' highlights the contradictions and duplicity of fighting drugs whilst simultaneously supplying them to the elites, who are the ones supposedly fighting the war.. utterly immoral.

tokeless wrote:I'd include extrajudicial killings in to that list.

Agreed. We could create a long list. Suicide is immoral unless you are a Kamikaze pilot or suicide bomber. Then it is not only suddenly moral, but to be rewarded. The same act (suicide) but transformed from immoral to moral.

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:

tokeless wrote:I'd include extrajudicial killings in to that list.

Agreed. We could create a long list. Suicide is immoral unless you are a Kamikaze pilot or suicide bomber. Then it is not only suddenly moral, but to be rewarded. The same act (suicide) but transformed from immoral to moral.

I think suicide is a tricky one for me. I have worked in mental health for many years and have known people who see suicide as self determination yet the law denies them that choice. There have been cases where someone wanted to die but improved their situation and the feelings subsided. I remember one who had severe physical problems and his quality of life was very poor as a result. He wanted to die by his own decision and yet was prevented because it wasn't an accepted choice. This just made his life harder and increased his desperation until he ended his life by hanging himself. What a pity he couldn't have been given a more dignified death instead of by those brutal means.. I have often found it strange that we can enlist in the forces and put our lives at risk and are seen as heroes. Yet, to decide that life just isn't what you want, you can't make that decision and be helped to end your life with dignity. I don't see suicide as immoral, but I see our religious framed laws that stop you to be more so.

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:We transform immoral acts into moral acts all the time.

Ending the life of another human is most often considered immoral. We transform this act via various processes into being moral all the time, e.g. war, capital punishment, euthanasia, religious justifications, etc. We may label these acts slightly different, calling the act killing rather than murder, but the behavior and outcomes are the same.

[Aggressing upon] the life of another human is most often considered immoral.

Explain how making something "legal" makes it "moral."


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Reply #78 was meant to be a typo correction to Reply #77; sorry if it may have caused confusion.