Sleep problems - dreaming non-stop

**Posts:** 4 · by **teecee** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:28 am

Hi
This is my first time posting. I've read the learning path and it has explained a lot. I've been suffering from mild/moderate depression and anxiety for almost 12 months. ( the result of some extremely stressful events, which don't really matter now)

My biggest problem has been my sleep. I fall asleep as soon as I hit the pillow but wake up within 90 minutes. I can go back to sleep pretty easily but this sleep/wake pattern continues all night. I usually wake up exhausted. As soon as I close my eyes at night I start dreaming. Vague images pop into my mind as I'm drifting off. It's as if I'm watching myself fall asleep. It's really begun to bother me. If I let myself relax enough I'll continue into sleep - but if I'm in an anxious mood I'll wake up and try to figure out where all this stuff is coming from and I can't get back to sleep. When I wake in the morning these dream images are with me as I'm waking up.

This phenomenon scares me but I'm also interested to find out what is happening. I explained this to my doctor. He couldn't tell me what was going on. He sent me for a sleep study (sleep apnea) The results came back normal. The sleep scientist explained that these images are called hypnagogic phenomenon and that it's a common symptom of narcolepsy, ( a sleep disorder characterised by early rem sleep onset). I don't have narcolepsy, but decided to research the condition on the internet. It appears that 60% of narcoleptics suffer from depression and the treatment for narcolepsy involves trycyclic antidepressants. I'm beginning to think that depression may be a sleep disorder.

I was wondering if other people experience this hypnagogic phenomenon. If so, how do you deal with it? I'm not taking any medications at the moment. I'm trying to train myself not to be scared of my depression and to stop trying to figure it all out - but as most of you know, that's pretty difficult.

TC

**Posts:** 5816 · by **Michael Lank** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:36 am

Hi TC,

Welcome to the Forum.

You say your biggest problem is your sleep - has this also been for the last 12 months whilst you've been feeling low?

You say that you wake up every 90 minutes or so - this corresponds with the period when we enter REM (rapid eye movement) dream sleep. As you'll have discovered from the Learning Path our dreams deal with emotions brought up from the previous day, excessive dreaming is tiring and so we can wake ourselves up to avoid tiring ourselves out.

You've already found that what works for you is allowing yourself to relax enough. Here's some useful advice on Sleep.

It is not that depression is a sleep disorder, but excessive dream sleep caused by too much rumination are both factors in the cycle of depression.

**Posts:** 2821 · by **Roger Elliott** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:26 am

Hi teecee

It's not uncommon to see depressed people go into REM almost as soon as they close their eyes for hypnosis. Their REM debt is so large that the brain seems to take every opportunity it can - it will always prioritise REM sleep over deep sleep.

So it may be that your experiences are simply your dreaming brain kicking in quickly. If you have identified yourself as ruminating a lot, this could well be the case.

Roger

**Posts:** 4 · by **teecee** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:07 am

Thanks for your words. I've figured that it had something to do with rumination. I find myself ruminating constantly - 'what's wrong' 'how bad can this get?' 'Will I ever recover?' that kind of thinking. It seems to be worse on weekends, when I have more free time to think. During the week I can keep my mind occupied (somewhat) with work. My problem is more anxiety than depression. I am constantly anxious and every two weeks or so I find myself sinking into depression for a few days. This is when my over dreaming periods are at their worst.

It's interesting that depressed people can slip into rem when during hypnosis. I've taken up yoga as a relaxation tool. I sometimes find that during meditation I can slip into a sleepy mood where I can sense that dreams are about to start.

When my problem started 12 months ago I went to see a Jungian pscho-analyst who encouraged me to record my dreams every morning. She also trained me in active imagination (a kind of meditation where you find yourself in a lucid dream-like state) This really made my anxiety and depression worse. I wouldn't recommend it. I have since started CBT which I find helpful, as it encourages acceptance and demystifies the strange sensations of panic, depersonalisation and depression.

Thanks again. It's nice to have some contact. This can be a very lonely journey at times. I feel I'm making real progress. Six months ago I was crippled with panic attacks and was becoming quite agoraphobic and very depressed. I decided to submit to the anxiety and let it do its worst. I couldn't fight it any longer. Strangely when I relaxed towards it, it didn't get any stronger. Now I am back at work, still ruminating, but functioning. I am now applying the same thinkng to my depression. I feel awful at times but I am optimistic.

Cheers
TC

**Posts:** 248 · by **grovelli** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:14 am

Roger Elliott wrote:It's not uncommon to see depressed people go into REM almost as soon as they close their eyes for hypnosis.

Hi Roger,
What do you do then, try and snap them out of it?

**Posts:** 33 · by **alternative** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:01 pm

hey are the dreams, you know, good dreams? the kind you would enjoy?do they change in content everyday, or do dreams tend to "follow" up each other in a whole another dream life? Do you usually wake up because something happens in the dream, or because you simply have this schedule of dreaming that seems to not change everyday? You say you go into a dream as soon as you close your eyes. Does this only happen in the evening when you would normally want to sleep, or throught the whole day? When you wake up realy tired from sleep, do you feel like yo still want to sleep,or do you just go to sleep again beause you are trying to get as much energy as possible regained during the night? Do you still want to sleep in the morning? Do you wake yourself up in the morning with an alarm or do you again use the dreaming schedule and always wake up at the same time each day without the help of an alarm? and my final question: when you wake up every 90 minutes, do you wake up because of a need (to go to the bathroom or get some water or turn up the airconditioner) or ...not?

**Posts:** 2821 · by **Roger Elliott** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:44 pm

Why would you want to snap them out of it Giorgio?

**Posts:** 248 · by **grovelli** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:58 pm

Oh, it's a good thing then. :oops:

Does this mean depressed people are optimal hypnosis subjects?

**Posts:** 2821 · by **Roger Elliott** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:19 pm

Someone going into REM isn't really good or bad - it just happens. But yes, depressed people are optimal hypnosis subjects because they are generally REM deprived, and often extremely tired, and the relaxation comes as a welcome relief from the tirade of anxiety-producing thoughts.

**Posts:** 4 · by **teecee** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:03 pm

This only happens at night. I try not to sleep during the day, but if I do nod off I normally don't have these dreams.

The content of the dreams is quite benign. I don't have nightmares very often. it's usually stuff that, when I think about it, I can easily relate to events that have happened in the last day or so

I do have a recurring dream, where I'm driving my car but always seem to get lost just before I reach my destination. (I suppose Freud would have a good interpretation of that )

I don't need an alarm to wake me. This dream/wake schedule is pretty constant. When I wake I stay up for about twenty minutes, then return to bed and can fall asleep reasonably easily. I wake up most mornings pretty tired and often very anxious, but after an hour or so I usually feel a little better - although some days I feel like I'm sleep drunk all day, my concentration is terrible. I usually feel a lot better by evening, less depressed and more relaxed - sometimes I can forget ruminating for a while and take an interest in other things.

And then it starts over again.

**Posts:** 33 · by **alternative** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:01 am

Hey, I'm no professional in sleep stuff, but If I were you, first thing I'd try is to just try to brake the sleep schedule. The problem could simply be that your brain's schedule is that way - you know how if you wake up everyday at exactly six in the morning, your brain will develop the schedule of waking up at six everyday without the need of an alarm. Now, if it's 90 minute periods for you, try setting an alarm for an hour; if you wake up very tired after that one hour and wish to do nothing but go right back to sleep, then it probably IS just a schedule thing; although if you wake up after the hour and feel the same way that you'd feel after the 90 minutes, then it's probably not this simple (if it was, the sleep scientist would probably have told you so already).

See if after that you wake up after half an hour (to make the full 90 minutes) on your own or not (which could further proove the schedule thing). Also this way, the car dream can get completely destroyed (If the alarm goes off before you get lost, who knows what would happen). After that, it could just stop. Now if you always wake up at the same time everyday on your own, try putting an alarm at half an hour earlier, and the next day a half an hour past...

although, I'm sure if this was the problem, though, the sleep scientist would probably have told you so. I don't know really. just what I would do in case of the phenomenon.

Since as you said, you don't have very odd dreams, the content probably doesn't have much to do with the depression.

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