I’ve been sitting on this for about two weeks now, because it’s just been too good to be true. It’s the “freaky magic hypnosis” stuff from the start of the thread; the “corners” you were talking about. I wanted to wait until it was happening reliably and not just on the odd day.
Well, congratulations. That sounds like that must be both exciting and a relief.
I’m still getting the usual 2-3 night-time ones, that wake me up [...] (How do I tackle them when I’m asleep?)
That’s a good question. Waking up is interesting because when you pay attention you can start to notice the background things being loaded into your mind. An acquaintance once told me about how her boyfriend was able to quickly stop bleeding intentionally, but that when he’d fall asleep often he’d start bleeding again. It seems like what’s going on in cases like this is that you’re operating on something that ends up getting dropped for sleep, and then without that layer of regulation going on, you revert to the old process and therefore the old results.
Another interesting thing is to notice which things wake us up and why. I’m a “heavy sleeper” in the sense that my wife’s alarm can go off and she can literally climb over me to get out of bed and it *never* wakes me up. However, the night we were waiting for the bear to come back into camp, somehow I found myself able to wake up to even the slightest noises from little foxes running around. Similarly, I have no problem waking up to *my own* alarm, even when it starts out very quietly and I’m sleep deprived from experimenting with polyphasic sleep. It’s just that my brain is discriminating between “this isn’t worth waking up for” and “this is”.
This can be changed through conscious intention. When I was first figuring out how suggestion works, I had the idea to ask my wife to remind me to turn the oven off when I got in bed, knowing that she’d be asleep when I did. Her first response was to object that she *couldn’t*, because she’d be asleep. When I assured her that it’d be okay if she failed, but to tell me that she would anyway, she did — and then when I got in bed, she reminded me. She had no memory of it the next day and almost didn’t believe me, but simply the act of saying “Okay, I’ll remind you to turn the oven off when you get in bed” as if she meant it was enough to set the intention so that her brain was waiting for that cue to remind me, even though she had dropped everything else and went to sleep. Similarly, I bet you can imagine setting the intention to be a light sleeper if you knew a bear was likely to visit camp, even though it probably wouldn't feel like a conscious decision to do so.
If I had to guess, being on the alert for too many things and refraining from dropping some new programs probably impacts the restfulness of ones sleep to some extent. However, I’d also bet that this largely goes away once it’s more of a well worn pattern than a “thing to have to remember to do”. Instead of “forgetting about it” at night, I’d just try going to bed with the reminder that you’re probably going to get heat fluctuations at night too, and that it’s still likely to be okay enough to not bother waking up for or sweating about (literally and otherwise).
I don't know why this is still difficult; it really shouldn't be. It’s all my own mind; why do we humans just love to categorise? It's as if it’s just a realisation away and I can’t see why it’s difficult. How do you do that? Why/how is it different from the inner dialogue one has, eg “why am I so upset about this issue, what is it about it, that gets to me so much?” and then getting a memory or “aha” moment sometime later? Wondering why something is the way it is, then thoughts moving on to something else while the SC processes? You seem to be saying to not even have the answer “coming from the SC, later”, just thinking it through seamlessly.
It can be “later” too. Or you can sit there for a while until it does — it just depends on how available the answer is. Those ideomotor signals don’t always come instantly either, you know.
I don't get your "am I hungry" example. You can tell if you’re hungry or thirsty, you get bodily sensations that tell you so.
What makes you think there aren’t sensations for these other things that you haven’t noticed yet? Have you noticed that the “hunger” sensation is actually a collection of various different sensations like “empty stomach”,”low blood sugar”,”need for protein”/etc? Haven’t you had the experience where your stomach feels a bit off and you have to try to figure out whether these feelings mean “hungry” or “do *not* eat” or something else?
Or think about how you figure out if you want to go to the movies with your friends -- or if you want to go jump in the frozen lake when you’re having a hot flash. You go forward into that simulated experience, feel the coolness, feel the goodness of the coolness, feel the excitement in anticipation of the goodness of the coolness, and say “yeah, I want that!”. It can all happen in a flash and it’s easy to miss, but when you zoom in on things that’s what’s actually going on when we figure out if we want things — looking at sensations that imagining them produces. Looking a bit further, we can question whether our initial reaction is the correct one, or if maybe we’re wrong about one of those connections.
I think the eye-rolling is about whether the ideomotor signals really are SC and not just wishful thinking and consciously controlled.
Oh, well that is worthy of eye rolling. You’re definitely being a little silly playing with those training wheels of yours, since it’s part of you, not some imaginary friend inside your head.
That’s okay though, it’s a *productive* silly, unlike the silly of thinking that bike riding is impossible.
It’s also about the idea that making decisions about things can actually achieve *physical* changes. I understand how changing your perception of something can change your experience of it (the jump from “intolerably hot” to “uncomfy, but tolerable”, then to “hot but not uncomfy) but not how that will change the physical thing itself.
But you understand how “feeling hot” will change the physical things like “I’m wearing a jacket”, right? You just take the jacket off when you no longer feel like it’d be a good thing to keep wearing. It’s not weird that your brain would coordinate with your body to use its biomechanical actuators to remove excess clothing to help with regulating to it’s desired setpoint.
It’s only weird because we’re not used to the idea that we can “consciously” control the other actuators we have to influence physical things. It’s harder to watch ourselves constricting and expanding blood vessels, sweat pores, and the like, so it’s harder to associate the inputs with the outputs and be able to reflect on when our behavior isn’t making sense (“doing things consciously”).
However, that does not mean we lack the actuators or that they are not being controlled by a regulating system. It just means we’re not used to being in touch with that control panel. It’s not crazy to think that we might be able to do that the same way we’ve learned to use our skeletal muscles, but it’s also going to come with limitations just as our skeletal muscles do. Not just in “output” like “I can only lift X pounds”/”I can only output Y liters/hour of sweat which can only remove Z watts of heat”, but also mental limitations. Our brains limit the output of our muscles to protect ourselves, so often even when we think we’re giving it “100%”, we’re actually holding back. The Oxford Handbook of Hypnosis talks about this a bit, but perhaps the most obvious case is when we have a hurt shoulder or something that gets “weak”. A large part of that “weakness” is a self protection impulse, and if you get assurance from the doctor who just scanned your shoulder with an ultrasound that there is no tear, that strength can come back *immediately*. So just because we get *some* ability to reflectively change the desired output of our actuators, it doesn’t mean we’ll get their *full* capacity right away. That, again, is simply a matter of working towards coherence, which doesn’t seem that crazy to me.
And from there you might find that some of those things that seem like fundamental “sensations” are actually your brains interpretations of temperature errors, and if that turns out to be the case and what felt like “sensations” are really more like “beliefs”, then why should it be hard to look at the territory and keep accurate beliefs there too?
The answer is in this somewhere. Is this where my brain is filling in the gaps? Getting some faulty signal, then filling in “oh, that must mean the body is too hot, initiate vasomotor response” without looking at the actual signal and going, ”but hold on, that doesn’t actually make sense, because body temperature has a normal range within which I don’t have to do anything”?
Or do you mean “I feel too hot” could actually be “I just believe I’m getting too hot even though I’m not?” Tell myself, I might be getting hot but not to believe I am getting so hot as to need to sweat? Or is it irrelevant whether or not I can do that, but just focus on how it would be if I could?
We can anthropomorphize simple control systems like a bimetallic strip thermostat by saying that the system as a whole “wants” the temperature to remain constant. Perhaps more precisely, we could stay that the thermostat thinks it should turn the AC on when the temperature gets above a certain temperature. Of course, it’s not like there’s some english speaking ghost in the machine saying “here’s why I think the AC should turn on..”, and there isn’t any sort of self reflection going on at all. However, there *is* a process looking at the temperature and actively correcting that to keep the temperature in a certain spot. If we see a person (or animal) moving a ball back to the same spot every time it rolls away, we’d say that this person/animal *wants* the ball to be in that spot — and this is true even if they don’t have the mental faculties to reflect on this and endorse it. In this sense, the curvature of the bimetallic strip or that sense that the ball is “out of place” can function like “beliefs”. Not as a “thing we tell ourself we believe”, but as a model of the outside world and its difference from what we’d like it to be.
If you know nothing about how thermostats work, the thingy bending just means the thingy is bending. Similarly, the feeling of hunger is just a feeling of hunger and pain is just pain. However, when you start to understand the structure of the control systems, you can start to see the curvature of the bimetallic strip as the “belief” the thermostat has about the ambient temperature, and the relative position of the contact as the “belief” it has about where the cutoff should be — because as you start to change your mind about where the cutoff should be you automatically begin changing the relative positions to match. Sometimes this comes naturally, and like when our feelings of disgust directly form our perceptions of right and wrong. When people say things like “I believe X is wrong”, often what they really mean is “the idea of X provokes a certain set of feelings in me, which I interpret to mean that X is wrong” — usually without awareness that they’re making this connection and reasoning in this way. That doesn’t mean that the statement “X is wrong” is wrong, just that this is often how it’s computed.
As you start to introspect and reverse engineer yourself, often things which start out seeming like “just sensations” end up looking more like embodied parts of our beliefs, and become modifiable as we do. Instead of “that hurts, and I don’t like the pain”, it’s “wow, my leg is damaged, and I don’t like that my leg is damaged”, and the sensation of pain itself becomes a complete non-issue because desiring to not feel pain transforms from “a completely normal thing to want” to the very strange desire to have incorrect perceptions of reality — like saying “it’s raining, but I don’t want to believe it is”. It’s not that the physical sensation itself feels any different, it’s just that when it has a different meaning you respond to it differently and that same sensation of pain can now exist free of aversion. Instead of “this sensation that’s bad and I don’t like” it’s just part of your brain and body’s beliefs about the state of your leg, and nothing to fret over (beyond just fretting about the state of your leg *itself*, maybe). Just like how it feels like something to have the thought “I think my leg is broken”, it feels like something to have your nerves firing, and for that to be interpreted as actual damage, and so on and so forth.
Yes, it’s doable and I *am* okay when I’m okay. A physical change has happened, that’s undeniable. It’s as if some “magic” happened (it’s the SC! ) and I’m astonished that it’s so powerful. But why only some of the time, if the question and answer are the same?
Just because you’re consciously convinced that the answer is the same doesn’t mean you’re always going to be just as convincing when you tell yourself that the answer is the same.
Maybe I *am* stuck with the few that still happen, but if some have gone, then why not the rest? How are they different? I’m still breaking a sweat with those that remain. Since you wrote this, I’ve been focusing on them, staying very much associated, and going “no actually, this is fine” (which it *is* at the start) but then it builds up beyond “this is fine” and goes to “too much now, have to sweat to cool off”. I don’t sweat overzealously, it doesn’t max out, but it breaks nevertheless; it still overshoots that point. There’s a step further I need to go. “No, my body isn’t *too* hot, I don't need to sweat” isn’t working….
It sounds like you’re getting to the point of losing credibility and pushing for things which are currently beyond the trust you have to invest. If you have someone encouraging you with “you’re fine
” it’ll help at first, but at some point if they don’t seem to notice you struggle and show no sign of ever saying anything *else*, it starts to become hard to believe them. “When wouldn’t you say that!?”. If you get into that situation, no matter how much or how strongly you reassure “you’re fine” it won’t help because the issue is no longer “they don’t realize you think they’re fine” it’s “they do not trust your judgement of what ‘fine’ is”. In those cases, you stop telling people what’s fine and what’s not. Instead, help give them some room to relax and not tolerate the questionably tolerable and inquire with curiosity into the fineness or lack thereof. If it’s not fine, why not? In what way are things not fine, and how do we know that?
If you do that, one of two things will happen. 1) you will learn how things actually aren’t fine, and therefore know not to keep pushing things, or 2) you will help them realize that things are *still* fine, and that you were right once again. Either way is a win. Additionally, either way the person will start to trust you a lot more, since now they can see that you care and are open to their perspective.
I agree, but how do you just not sweat? I know I won’t overheat. I know it isn’t necessary to sweat. The small and rapid sweats that happen now aren’t enough to make much of a cooling difference anyway, so why bother to sweat at all? It doesn’t make sense, but tell that to my brain….
By not feeling too hot. You can’t override the impulse to sweat the way you can override the impulse to take your jacket off (I mean you personally, at this moment. I see no reason why it shouldn’t be possible for one to acquire that skill) so you have to not want to cool off. Meaning, you look at the question “am I too hot?” and actually find the answer to be that sweating isn’t necessary. Of course, this isn’t a “telling yourself” thing so much as it is a “seeing” thing. Looking at the sky and all that.
‘Cocky and obnoxious’ doesn’t even begin to cover it. ..
Cocky, obnoxious, and… right? Transcendent? Hopefully I’m living up to my new nickname
In all seriousness though, I do mean it. Whining about non-problems *does* interfere with things. It’s just not true that “whining about non-problems” is this trivial issue to be looked down upon, or which can only happen to big babies. I fully expect that getting stung by a tarantula hawk, for example, will mess with my ability to focus and perform well on various tasks. At the same time though, it’d just be my brain “whining” (“screaming”?) about a complete non-issue, and a more masterful handling of incoming sensory data would relegate that information to the background and correctly identify it as “not a problem”.
This kind of thing also becomes much harder the less mental resources you have to spend on it. Just like it can be a bigger issue when you’re asleep than when you’re awake, it can be a bigger issue when you’re stressed/preoccupied/etc. I don’t think I get motion sickness anymore unless I’m sleep deprived, but when I’m low on sleep I’m quite sensitive to it and my only option is to just shut down. Normally I’m pretty comfortable with temperature swings, but when I had the stomach flu I felt pretty uncomfortable and sweaty when the fever was breaking even though I absolutely knew that I wasn’t too hot. It’s just that I was just too busy dealing with much bigger sources of misery to even care about the fact that I was mildly uncomfortable about this other thing *too*.