Am I right to cut a family member out of my life?

Candid wrote: [quote=“Richard”] The OP isn’t going to permanently break contact with her father, because at worst he has been verbally abusive. I’m not condoning verbal abuse. I’m only pointing out that is the worst we have in this case. At best, he is a jerk, an a-hole, a crass individual that has made his daughter uncomfortable with his sexually charged behaviors.

That's an extraordinary viewpoint!

Is it? If I step back and take a broad view of what you have written, you would or should argue that my viewpoint is all too common. Society is dismissive and unwilling to treat the abused as the survivors that they are.

Isn’t my viewpoint in some sense exactly what you believe is wrong at a fundamental level?

I think I have already made it clear that I absolutely do not condone the behaviors of Mephista’s parents.

My question Candid, do you believe the statement where in front of the mother “he was drunk and literally laid on top of me and fondled me,” is sexual abuse?

As a side note: In Bangladesh, girls are sold by their parents for £200 to one of around 20 brothels. The girls are fed daily doses of steroids used to fatten up cattle. Larger women are considered more attractive, so the steroids help do the job. These women are sold, enslaved, and prostituted.

The reason I include the last paragraph in this response is not to diminish the alleged behavior of the father. I don’t condone the father’s behavior. I also don’t condone parents selling their children into prostitution. I’m only asking, does the father’s behavior constitute sexual abuse?

What should be done with parents that sell their children into prostitution? What should be done to a father that gropes his 20 year old daughter?

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:If I step back and take a broad view of what you have written, you would or should argue that my viewpoint is all too common. Society is dismissive and unwilling to treat the abused as the survivors that they are.

Isn’t my viewpoint in some sense exactly what you believe is wrong at a fundamental level?

Yes. You're absolutely right about that! Despite the stories that make the news, the majority of people believe all parents love their children, and most reports of rape are either false or trivial. That's a belief that helps people function in the world... unless and until it happens to them.

My question Candid, do you believe the statement where in front of the mother “he was drunk and literally laid on top of me and fondled me,” is sexual abuse?

The relevant section of the forms I handle is
Rape
Assault by penetration
Other sexual assault
Gross misconduct

In this case, "other sexual assault" would be checked and yes, Mephista would then go on a waiting list for counselling. The fact that her mother watched and did nothing would come up for discussion, too.

The reason I include the last paragraph in this response is not to diminish the alleged behavior of the father.

Oh, I think it was.

We do get cases such as the ones you mention, all of them newcomers to the UK. There was also the December 2018 case of a group of schoolgirls on a trip to Africa to help out on an aid project. Their bodyguard was shot in front of them then all the girls and their female teacher were raped.

Obviously I've got inured to reading horrible stuff, but some cases stand out as worse than others and get bumped up the waiting list.

I’m only asking, does the father’s behavior constitute sexual abuse?

Yes, it does.

What should be done with parents that sell their children into prostitution? What should be done to a father that gropes his 20 year old daughter?

I don't know. But in all the cases referred to in this thread, reporting to the police is probably low priority. Clearly the law can do nothing about the abusers of people new to the country. The police in the African country alluded to were handling that one, and I'm unlikely to hear about the outcome. I don't know where in the world Mephista is, but she hasn't mentioned reporting her father. My guess is she hasn't even considered it.

So... most cases aren't reported, very few are prosecuted, but all victims of sexual assault are eligible for counselling. As a man with GEPs, you probably can't imagine what it's like to have a father making crude sexual advances to you. The psychic/emotional havoc that causes reverberates for decades.

Well, I'm off to Findhorn today https://www.findhorn.org/about-us/ for refreshment of my jaded spirit. I'll be back late on June 15.

Candid wrote:
Well, I'm off to Findhorn today https://www.findhorn.org/about-us/ for refreshment of my jaded spirit. I'll be back late on June 15.

This gave me a big smile.

When conversing with someone online it is natural to develop a “mental picture” or image of that person. Even as I am well aware how misleading and inaccurate, given the years we have conversed it is normal to have a “Candid” representation.

When I clicked on the link, it looks awesome. I thought, “This is perfect for Candid, she will have a great time.” It was almost too perfect a fit for mental representation of you.

Totally not for me, lol. My jaded spirit isn’t ready.

The relevant section of the forms I handle is
Rape
Assault by penetration
Other sexual assault
Gross misconduct

In this case, "other sexual assault" would be checked and yes, Mephista would then go on a waiting list for counselling. The fact that her mother watched and did nothing would come up for discussion, too.

In my state, what happened would fall under “assault” as it relates to criminal activity. If Mephista wanted to press charges, the father would be summoned to court and fined. It wouldn’t qualify as “sexual” for a number of reasons.

I am assuming in the forms you handle, rape and penetration violate the law. What about “other sexual assault”? Is it criminal or are there cases where technically no crime was commented, but it still makes the person eligible for counseling?

What about gross misconduct? Any of it considered criminal?

A mother comes up to her adult son and slaps his butt while saying, “Hey baby, you have a sweet, sweet little @ss.” In my state, it is assault, not sexual assault. It is also not abuse. The son is an adult.

A drunk mother sits on her adult sons lap and grabs or “fondles” his package. The father watches and does nothing. It is disturbing, in my opinion it is ethically/morally bankrupt, but it is criminally treated as assault, not sexual assault. It is not treated as abuse of a 20 year old.

In my state, touching breasts or touching a “sexual organ” of an adult is not sexual assault or abuse.

___
I understand a behavior can be psychologically traumatic, regardless if it meets the legal threshold of abuse or sexual assault.

I think in this case you and I have different frames of reference. We both see the father’s actions as horrible. We both see the actions of the father and the mother as unjustifiable.

How to proceed? Not for you, as you have your torch to bear. What is my role, if any? Given I participate in the forum and try to give advice, how does my frame of reference influence my thought process?

My thought process...I see two imagined futures for Mephista. Both involve some future point where Mephista is explaining to someone her relationship with her parents.

Future -1-
“I don’t have much contact with my parents. My dad is a real d#!#. He is crass, a jerk, a drunk, and just not a good person. I don’t have much respect for him. When I was younger he treated me like s#$*, so I don’t really see much value in the relationship. When I was 20, he actually grabbed my breasts once and he has called me a whore. What a friggin #^&. My mom defends him, so I don’t talk with her much either.

Future -2-
“I don’t have much contact, because I’m a survivor, a victim of sexual molestation at the hands of my father. I’m a victim of verbal abuse as a child and into my adult years. I go to trauma counseling and have a therapist, because of his abuse and my mothers neglect. I have a lot of support, people that understand and reinforce that as a victim they are here for me, unlike my parents.”

I guess my struggle is validating Future -2-, when it seems to me that Future -1- is a much healthier and productive frame of reference. Why do parents either need to be classified as GEP or those that produce offspring suffering from CPTSD?

Why is there not a middle ground, where you just say, “My parent is a #@!$head,” but I don’t need years of therapy, I don’t need to be told I have CPTSD, I don’t need to adopt a victim or survivor mentality, etc.?

I’m sure there is a middle ground between GEP and CPTSD, but maybe in this forum I just don’t get that sense. It seems every case is treated as binary.

Hope you are enjoying Findhorn.

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:I am assuming in the forms you handle, rape and penetration violate the law.

Yes, of course. The only issue is consent. That doesn't mean penetration would be prosecuted (very few cases are) or that clients would be encouraged in any way to report it.

What about “other sexual assault”? Is it criminal or are there cases where technically no crime was commented, but it still makes the person eligible for counseling?

"Other sexual assault" covers a lot of things... many of which I myself have experienced: being grabbed on the breasts, having men expose themselves to me, that kind of thing. I see a lot of referrals that (for me) evoke "so what? It's just the experience of most women." But yes, anyone who raises a complaint is eligible for counselling. As a psychologist you would understand that what's traumatic for one person is water off a duck's back for another.

What about gross misconduct? Any of it considered criminal?

Probably not, but don't quote me on that. It's the least-checked box on the form.

A mother comes up to her adult son and slaps his butt ...

A drunk mother sits on her adult sons lap ...

You've given two examples of a woman behaving in beastly fashion to her son. In all my years of involvement with victims of sexual assault, I haven't once seen this reported. Other forms of mother/son abuse yes; sexual abuse of any kind, no.

We do need to acknowledge that males and females (of any species) are different. Being a Darwinist (or Dawkinsist), I understand it makes sense for males to rape and for women to be traumatised by it. One can theoretically further his genes 300+ times a year, while the other pays what I consider a prohibitively high price to produce a single child. So I don't believe rape will ever be eliminated; all I can do is support those who've been violated.

I see two imagined futures for Mephista...

Future -1- is the 'hardened' response. Those I've encountered are 'acting out' with generalised aggression, relational difficulties, and substance abuse.

Future -2- tend to be less visible, more self-effacing, and with such severe relational difficulties that they automatically isolate themselves.

Which do you think is better, to be aggressive and hook up only with other aggressive people, or to be socially avoidant and condemned to life alone? No one actually makes that decision, it's temperamental.

Why do parents either need to be classified as GEP or those that produce offspring suffering from CPTSD?

I'm not as black-and-white on this as you appear to believe. Technically, parents who raise a child to adulthood are GEPs, no further effort required. All that counts is The Selfish Gene, right?

That's one view. Another is that people traumatised in childhood are compelled to 'act out' in destructive ways. Alice Miller https://www.alice-miller.com/en/ makes the point quite dramatically (re. Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein and others), and I'm inclined to believe her... despite (or because of?) her son Martin's claim that he too was subjected to abuse. By Alice.

You see, it gets complicated.

Why is there not a middle ground, where you just say, “My parent is a #@!$head,” but I don’t need years of therapy, I don’t need to be told I have CPTSD, I don’t need to adopt a victim or survivor mentality, etc.?

Because we are not machines, we are animals who have evolved well past the point of physical survival alone and are now subject to multiple conflicting pressures that differ from country to country even though all humans are the same species. AFAIK this particular powder keg has not previously existed.

Interesting times!

Try being auupportive. I took a class in Family Law at a local College the judge said you can walk into absolutely horrible family situation and the kids still want to stay with the parents she is struggling it's a difficult decision

At first, you are not OLD!!!Fin.