Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:-1- A father brings in his pregnant 16 year old daughter...
Interesting to me that you say you believed she said no, and that the men continued without her consent.
Lots of factors here:
The possibility that discovering she was pregnant inspired her to say it was non-consensual.
Alcohol consumption and stripping in front of the guys.
Consenting up to a point with three males.
No immediate report, no cry for help, not wanting to report until her father questioned the pregnancy.
To be honest, I wouldn't expect her claim to get very far. That's not to say I don't think she went through a rotten experience that she herself possibly saw as rotten only in retrospect: when she sobered up, or when she discovered she was pregnant. Teenage girls do daft things, particularly when they've been drinking and they're being egged on by boys. If a teenage boy stripped in the park it's unlikely (but not impossible) that he would be the victim of a sexual assault. Not fair, but a fact of life.
What is produced/published are the clear cut rapist. Real life is much less well defined.
Absolutely! The unknown assailant who leaps out as the victim navigates a dark alley and drags her into bushes appears to be a myth. The data I manage show client's home / perpetrator's home is the most common location. Perpetrators are chiefly male relatives, friend or acquaintance. Since I started working with survivors there's been an unsettling increase in drug-assisted offences whereby a victim has a complete blank between drinking at a bar and waking up with vaginal soreness.
-2- Heather feather.
Where I presently work, there are separate counsellors for children, the youngest of whom are seen in a well-equipped playroom. Leading questions are never asked. The counsellor gains trust and makes observations while the child chooses toys, paints pictures, or whatever. The accompanying parent or guardian waits in an adjacent room. But this is entirely different to your work, in which a decision had to be made re. prosecution.
Had I implanted a memory, then called in a detective that confirmed the memory I had put there? Had her mother unintentionally coached her?
Not something we can ever know. I can only tell you about a five-year-old whose mother alleged that both she and her 10-year-old sister had been sexually abused by their father. In voice-and-video recording, the five-year-old was repeatedly asked about "horrible things" the father had done to her. Can't remember what she came up with, but I do recall it was comical. Also, that whoever was 'interviewing' her did a fine job of scaring, confusing, and possibly implanting false memories.
I was access supervisor in that case. The accused, like 'Heather feather's' uncle, was quite slow. It remains my belief that he was innocent, and that his estranged partner wanted to move on and not have to be bothered with access visits. At a subsequent court case to which I was subpoenaed, he did indeed lose access rights and is presumably still on the offender's register.
As I have gotten older and hopefully wiser, I don’t have the same confidence in the system.
Nor do I!
-3- A personal story.
I sympathise with your family member, although I'm inclined to think he needed to make absolutely certain of the girl's age if he had the least suspicion she was lying. As noted before, many teenagers of both sexes do stupid and even dangerous things, including lying, because they're so desperate to be popular and grown-up. I doubt the court determined that she was "incapable of knowing better", only that legally she was too young to give consent. What's interesting about the US is that the age of consent differs between states, correct? That, I agree, makes it a minefield for randy males.
His case is not some rare unfortunate exception to the rule.
I can't confirm or deny, only reiterate that these cases probably
should be widely publicised, including televised interviews with the men whose lives have been ruined, so that males of all ages will check and double-check before unintentionally having sex with children.
That much could easily be done. It would be far harder to find, and even harder to interview on camera, the millions of people whose lives have been ruined by sexual assault. It's worth noting that making a false report to the police is itself a crime. While there are many people who believe the majority of rape complaints are false, I've yet to hear of a single case of a complainant being prosecuted. Even the police know sexual assault is grossly under-reported.
There was one case where a girl had been drugged and raped for days. She escaped and was running for her life.
These stories do come to light occasionally: males and females, but more commonly females, used as sex slaves via kidnapping and imprisonment in a shed or basement, or the same treatment by fathers, stepfathers, older brothers... Children being born, no medical intervention, corpses buried in back yards... Yes, appalling stuff. It's hard to imagine that anyone rescued from such a situation could ever have anything resembling a 'normal' life.
I find what the officer told you about No Further Action interesting. It seems odd to me, maybe because we have a different system. Or maybe the officer you talked with was a detective with a close working relationship with the prosecutor.
The reason I find it odd, is that we also had a type of NFA system, but it had nothing to do with how a victim might respond or hold up in court.
I think I must have worded that badly. It was
the line of questioning I raised with the detective, not the preponderance of NFAs, because so many of my clients at that time were distressed that "the police didn't believe me". I understand there's been some improvement in interview technique since then, but it was common 20 years ago for police to ask "Did you lead him on?" "Why did you invite him into your home?" etc. What the detective told me was that if victims were upset by what could be construed as doubting their word, an aggressive Defence Counsel would make an unholy mess of them -- NOT that the police would NFA it. Defence Counsels, as you may know, are allowed to use intimidatory tactics, ask questions intended to confuse the 'witness', come right out and call her a liar, plus bring in every kind of misleading or apocryphal tale intended to paint her as less than an upright citizen. Because a rape complainant in court is only a witness, no one is permitted to speak for her in any way.
During the 12 months I've been in my present job there have been about 800 new referrals for adult counselling and slightly less than half that amount for under 18s. Only a fraction of the adults reported to police, and most of those were NFA. Just two cases have gone to court, and in both cases -- surprise, surprise -- the verdict was Not Guilty.
The idea that hundreds of innocent men are being falsely accused AND found guilty is, quite frankly, outrageous.
Our system of NFA we called “solvability”. If a person reported rape, what was the likelihood the case would be solved? Boxes allowed a rating in certain areas, such as availability of physical evidence, witnesses, time elapsed, etc. Cases with higher solvability took priority.
Yes, I think it's much the same here... although I was surprised recently to find police were investigating a case in which a young woman passed out drunk and was subsequently found covered in cuts and bruises, including to the vaginal area. I presume they'll be looking for anyone in the vicinity at the time (daytime), since the victim herself didn't know who had assaulted her.
While given your experience you can’t imagine, there are surprisingly plenty of people that consider their parents as awful or want to tell a story of how horrific a childhood they had, because they want to fit in with whatever social circles they associate.
In that case, after a brief interlude without parental support, they'll get over it and return to the fold.
My best friend (this is my
best friend I'm talking about) simply doesn't get it. She told me about having a row with her mother, they didn't speak for a few weeks, then BF went to Mum's place, Mum opened the door, and they fell into each other's arms crying. Granted, it was years ago she told me this story, as if maybe I should call home and give the old girl another chance. Similarly, BF doesn't get it about sexual assault. Hey, she's had plenty of sex she didn't particularly want and that wasn't great. Someone with good-enough parents and who hasn't been raped can't be expected to know about familial abuse and sexual violence.
If Sally and Susan and Betty are all in feminist studies at Uni and everyone is being taught about the horrific abuses of the patriarchy, and if Sally and Susan truly did suffer abuse, then at least some percentage of the peer group will begin to feel the social pressure or the emotional need to belong. Betty wants to fit in, so she begins searching her memory for...
Seriously, Richard, is this conjecture or can you refer me to a peer-reviewed study of such a phenomenon? Because you know I think the world of you, but on this subject I believe you're talking through your hat.
In Maslow’s motivational hierarchy, the need to belong is very fundamental to human nature.
Quite -- and the need to belong to your family of origin outweighs to an astronomical degree the need to fit in with your fellow students!
what are the studies regarding how many are false reports? This is not discussed.
It's discussed quite a bit, sufficiently that in her book
Asking For It, Kate Harding devotes a whole chapter to the topic. Harding's a wise and witty writer, and I'd like to quote her verbatim if time and typing fingers allowed. Here's an extract:
I'm not interested in making excuses for fraudulent victims, who make it that much harder for real ones to get justice. It's fine to think women who lie about rape deserve to be punished for it, but let's not act as though one woman's false testimony is, by itself, sufficient to create the Kafkaesque hell of a wrongful prosecution -- especially when a genuine victim's credible testimony is still not often enough to merit even an arrest. The idea that any given vengeful, embarrassed, or simply bored woman can "cry rape" and automatically send an innocent man to prison is pure fiction.And later, FYI:
The fact is, men are far more likely to be victims of sexual assault than of lying, vindictive women.For instance, you have only two categories that you discussed. Either it was criminal rape or it was NFA. The fact there is not a 3rd category, the category of a person making a false claim in your mind means that false claims are exceedingly rare, not worthy of tracking. I see things differently. The absence of data doesn’t mean it isn’t taking place.
I've worked and am still working in sexual violence counselling agencies, not in the legal system. We don't question any referral, we just clean up the mess. IOW, I have no business with false reports.
It is sort of okay to say a claim can’t be proven, but to say a claim is outright false or disingenuous, that is heresy that comes with it’s own brand of social justice.
As mentioned, giving a false report of rape or any other crime is itself a crime. You would be better placed than I to determine how common false reports are, and what action is taken about them.
Maybe I’m making a Type I error, but it just doesn’t seem like it is correct to validate in this case. Given my experience, I give the parents the benefit of the doubt here.
And given mine, I empathise with the parts of the OP quoted in my reply No. 3.