Depression & Sleeping Patterns

Hi Ally, welcome to the forum!
Insomnia is a 100% natural response to stress. The body stays awake because the mind keeps it that way. Is simply does not allow the body to achieve the sleep state.
The only way to stop insomnia is to relax the body so deeply that sleep naturally takes over, whilst keeping the conscious mind occupied with something else.

Hi Ally

It sounds like you have done a lot of thinking about this, and your conclusions seem very sound. It is a bit difficult to 'diagnose' exactly why you are having problems with this via a forum, but it does sound like you are doing the right things.

You mention that you are a 'relapsing depressive'. Have you read the Depression Learning Path?

If so, how you do think you rate on rumination? Are you doing a lot of it and so generating a strong need for REM sleep?

Roger

Will anyone allow me to post anything from a christians perspective? I do not want to step out of bounds.

Sure Jared, you can discuss anything you like that is on-topic and not offensive, as long as you are happy for people to discuss it right back!

Well, I will say right now I am not going to say anything yet that has to deal with christianity. However, I have discovered by reading most thing on this site and other sources that my girlfriend is very emotional. Giving off emotional arousal. Is it true we most complete our cycle of emotion to not REM during sleep. Well, the thing was is that she finnally cried in front of me because of certain issues. Also, she was frustrated about something and I got an idea. Instead of doing nothing by not completing the cycle of emotion. I told her why don't she just find a safe place for her and everyone and hit something, safely of course, and get out her frustration. Well, she said after crying and getting out the frustration she felt 100% better. She said she did not feel depressed anymore and also she said she did not dream. She felt better when she got up the next morning. It only happened once and last night. If she continues to just let out what she feel, guessing that is the completion of finishing the cycle of emotion, then she would have no need to REM. There for getting ride of all the symptoms that come with it. Any thought on this?

hello Roger,

yes i do ruminate on things a lot - once a problem has got into my head i cannot get it out, no matter how i try. I keep getting conversations almost - only my side of course - about what i should of said, could of said, might still say ... consequently, i know - from a intellectual level - that all im doing i making the problem worse by keeping it in my head, but it won't go away. Consequently i get angry and upset, which makes the problem worse, and then starts involving other people as they get caught in the cross fire. Emotional hijacking, i think its called. Even now, i'm constantly re-running an episode that happened last monday with my boss (its affecting my work too) and am on the point of tears as i type. Last night i slept, but woke feeling like i'd been battling demons all night - my boyfriend stayed last night - he said i was talking in my sleep, and tossing and turning all night - i don't think he got much sleep either!!

I have found the Depression Learning Path - it was from there that i found this forum, and also your hypno downloads to try and get to that state of complete relaxation that one of the other correspondents suggested. I don't know if they're helping yet, but the Path was helpful in providing a link to the various factors that i'd noticed in my own situation.

But i do need to find a solution to this, as i cannot continue to be like this. I know on one level, as a rational intelligent adult human person, that much of this is simply my own messed up view of things, and that people are not as much of a threat, or as judgemental, or any of the other things that i perceive them to be, nor that the bubble that i live in actually exists (by which i mean that i am always on the outside of situations/realtionships - another way of looking at it is as a shadow-person, always there but not of any substance - it depends on the situation, but its usually one or t'other) yet i have no control over the way i react - often by fighting/crying/hiding. and then of course i feel even worse for allowing myself to react like that, so even lower self estreem and so on and so forth, spiralling deeper and deeper, then the dreams get even worse, and i get more and more exhausted, and more and more introspective ...

ps. You mention that i've done a lot of thinking about this - i rarely think of anything else. i hate being a non-person. I'm always looking for a way to deal with it, including an explaination for it. Sorry - bad day today...

Hi again Ally

Our ability to introspect is uniquely human, and a tool without which we would not have progressed far as a species. It just seems that you are overusing yours somewhat!

Your anxiety levels are clearly playing a large part in this, and it sounds like you wold benefit greatly from seeing a good therapist who can show you how to relax properly, and teach you new ways of thinking about things.

I notice you mention that you exercise. I strongly recommend that you increase the aerobic exercise you do which will help lower your levels of stress hormones, give you a break from rumination and increase your serotonin levels which will help your sleep. Ensuring that your heartrate remains properly elevated for at least 20 minutes will ensure you get the most benefit.

Are you able to get to see a therapist?

Roger

In some patients with untreated depression, rather than insomnia we observe excessive sleeping.

I wonder whether this is due to their need for slow wave sleep that is squeezed out by excessive REM (Which is always prioritized), or just down to a natural response to exhaustion? I suspect there is a more elegant reason than that, but those are just my thoughts.

Sorry - me again ... just something you might already be aware of in other cases, but when i do over-sleep (more than 8-9 hours) at week-ends when i don't have to get up for work - ie on and off dozing/dreaming etc sometimes as late as midday, i generally feel worse than if i hadn't had the extra time in bed. Whether this is because, although there is more sleep, it is still very shallow and dream-laden, or for some other reason, i'm not sure, but i feel very groggy and find it difficult to get going at all that day. I did think that my body was simply trying to deal with the exhaustion of the week by 'catching up' on the hours missed Mon-Fri, but maybe not.

(NB - since my last two messages, i am begining to regain rationality and concentration. And my energy levels are waking up again. Does it show?? This is interesting stuff.)

hiya,

i did see a therapist for a while, but it didn't work out. If anything, it made things worse in a way. On one level, she unearthed the causes of my low self worth, but all it made me do, sadly, was realise that there was a cause to my low self worth that i couldn't address. Didn't really help me deal with the problem. I think i probably needed a different approach, but haven't pursued it further. I spent nearly two years spending every tuesday feeling even more lousy really. Kinda puts a girl off!!

Excersise ... hmm... i haven't found anything that tires me enough to make me sleep better.

but we're getting away from the sleep discussions here ...

Great Donna. Let us know how you get on

I'm Bipolar (manic-depressive). Not being able to sleep is terrible, and for Bipolar sufferers can induce mania, but I really feel that the worst thing is about erratic sleep patterns is when I was depressed. When depressed, I usually wake up after about 8-9 hours sleep, and have no recollection of dreams (no recall of REM sleep), but feel terrible. I find that I naturally just want to dose off for another couple of hours and REM sleep (I love the dreams... really vivid) but this is absolutely the worst thing I can do. It leaves me with that "underwater feeling" for the rest of the day.

Now, when I wake up (no matter how bad I feel) I get out of bed and have a shower straight away, and after a coffeee and something to eat, I'm actually feeling relatively good. Ask famliy and loved ones to just stay out of your way in the morning for about half an hour, as you will find any contact with other people extrememly stressful until you have fully woken up, and if you are forced into a position where you have to snap at someone because you just can't take it (even when they just say "what are you doing today!), you will feel worse about it later. When depressed, mornings can be really difficult, but battle through it. If you try this for a week you will notice a massive difference. You will even notice a difference after the first mroning, but persevere.

Dear Ally,

Right... I've never tried to convey this approach in writing before (I've shared it with a couple of people who have had clinical depression, and one chap who was suffering from a panic disorder leading to depression, and they all think its great), and I certainly think it'd be better to talk to you, but I really do think this will help. (I'm just aware that this is a totally avant garde method of dealing with depression... thats all).


I'm sorry to hear you are having a difficult period in your life. I go through the same thing from time to time, but recently have developed a solution which seems to work extremely well for me, and I haven't been depressed (or manic - I'm Bipolar) since. It's long winded because it needs to be, but read it through and see what you think. Also, I am making some assumptions as to EXACTLY whats on your mind here, but this is only meant to be as an example.... you seem to be going through exactly what I went through in terms of emotional turmoil, but on a conscious level our thoughts will always be different. Remember, its not what you are thinking... its why.

You sound like a very intelligent, articulate person, but unfortunately when you are depressed this can play against you (Roger Elliot called this Introspection, and he's right on the money with that description!). In the past you have probably defined yourself through your opinions on various subjects and issues, and moral beliefs in life (which is completely normal, although the other main way is to define yourself by the way you look, dress, act... more of a superficial approach). The problem is, that if you like thinking about the world and what happens in it, about the sort of person you are, and if this is important to you, you will inevitably come to the conclusion that it is not a very nice place, and that people sometimes act in ways which are wrong, which cause either physical or more relevantly, emotional harm. You are obviously aware of this at a subconscious level as you exhibit the symptoms of someone who cares immensely about other peoples feelings, but who knows that this sensitivity and subsequent inaction is causing you no end of emotional grief. You don't want to tell your boss where to go because you don't want to make his/her life difficult, your inaction is linked to the fact that you DO define yourself through your thoughts and opinions at a given point in time... so therefore other people's definition of you will be slated if you make a mistake at work, make a poor decision or even simply disagree with someone... especially your boss. You then spend your time worrying about how it is possible to remedy the situation, and end up in banging your head against a brick wall by thinking "if I'd have just done this", "I shouldn't have done that" or "I should have said that"

Your mind is racing because you are looking for a solution to this problem.

The best thing to do is to try and define who you are (write it down in bullet form) and then remove from the list anything that relates to the following:

1. Things you do with your body (sports, listening to/playing music, drinking/socialising, observing life, little habits you have like talking to yourself/thinking out loud, smoking/drugs etc, the way you dress). If you are doing one of these activities one minute, but not the next, and you still feel like "yourself" on both occasions, then it naturally follows that neither activity is a defining factor of "who you are." Neither is intrinsicly indicative of "Your" "Self"

2. Anything you do with your conscious mind that is linked to the passing of time. If you are thinking about something one minute and something else the next, but you feel like "yourself" on both occasions, then it naturally and logically follows that neither thought is a defining factor of "who you are". etc

EMOTIONS.

Emotions are feelings which are linked to specific times and places.

i. When you are on a rollercoaster you can feel exhilarated, scared, happy.
ii. If you got in a fight/arguement you would feel scared, angry or aggressive.
iii. If you got married you may feel nervous, anxious, elated, euphoric.

The point is... different people have different emotional reactions to different circumstances. Now, if you think back to one of these situations... do you FEEL the same emotional reaction that you had at the time? Do you feel the same as the exact moment when you are arguing with your boss? Do you mentally and emotionally feel like you're actually on a Rollercoaster just by thinking about it? I certainly don't. If I did I would spend the rest of my life thinking about when I saw "The Black Crowes" play live in Sheffield in 1995. I'd never get anything done.

The questions that you must answer is "what (emotion) can I feel just by thinking about it, irrespective of time?" and "what (emotion) do I feel even when I'm not thinking about/acting on it?"

And the answer is Love. I know you're studying philosophy, so I can ellaborate on this by saying its "Agape" rather than "Eros" or "Philia" (http://www.iep.utm.edu/l/love.htm) . This could be the love between a man and woman, parent and child, person and cat/dog, between good friends. Remeber though... you're not thinking about "what" you love about someone, just focus on the emotion. Think of your parents, your boyfriend, your pet.... you love them irrespective of their actions (sometimes what makes life so painful AT TIMES!)

If you find your mind racing... just repeat to yourself "I am not my thoughts, I AM my love", try and feel that emotion and you will find that you can actually stop thinking.

I know you have been at your wits end, but this approach works for me (and a couple of friends who have had similar problems!). There's alot of info here, and just like a good record, it might take a couple of listens before you really begin to appreciate it. This kind of approach can be linked to any of the world major religions (I'm not religious though) and cultures, so irrespective of your background you should be able to benefit from it. Also, any questions post it on the board or email me if you don'twant to share.

On a more light hearted note, and in the name of shameless self promotion, please check out my website. I'm an unsigned songwriter, but all my music was written while I was either Manic or depressed. See what you think. You'll need a broadband connection to listen though. www.davidgow.moonfruit.com

And if you think anyone on your Philosophy course would be interested in this perspective, pass it on.

Dave.