Anger and Rational Thinking vs. Aesthetic Thinking

Postby Leo Volont » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:48 am

I have been looking into the Cognitive Behavior Therapies lately. The logic behind the Cognitive Behavior Therapies is that what people are thinking governs their Behavior, and so if they can get a better handle on how they ‘think’, that is, on how they Interpret their Realities, well then their Behaviors will be more, well, ‘thoughtful’. The usual condition is that people think what they habitually think and so they feel the way they habitually feel, and so in the end they behave as they habitually behave. Any bit of consciousness or awareness shining its light within that chain of events would help matters significantly.

But I’ve been noticing that even among people who DO think, well, the thinking is not always Rational or Logical. Now, in this Age of Science and Technology we have sort of grown used to the idea that Thinking in and of itself is Rational. If people ‘think’ about the sum of 2 plus 2, then they will of course arrive at ‘4’. But in cases were the complexity of events goes a bit beyond simple sums, well, I’ve noticed a different style of Thinking taking over. Instead of applying the Standard of Rationality and Objective Empirical Observation to arrive at their Interpretations of Reality, people are using an Aesthetical Style of Thinking, that is, “what is the most ‘Beautiful’ way of interpreting this or that event”.

Now, the problem with Aesthetics is that it is all subject to individual taste. Beauty, and what feels good, sounds good or looks good, or what seems morally or ethically pleasing and ‘right’, well, they are all different qualities for different people. Philosophy has been struggling with Aesthetics for thousands of years now and still can’t tie a nice little bow around it. So, if all of our thinking is governed by pure personal aesthetics – what we think is Good and Beautiful – well, we should be prepared to run into the opposition of other people who can’t be expected to see it the same way as ourselves. We cannot expect everybody to share our Aesthetic Tastes. Not everybody likes Vanilla. Some people will simply demand Chocolate and they aren’t ‘wrong’. So if we Think Aesthetically we will hit that same walls of opposition over and over again.

Well, opposition is frustrating, and that leads some people to Anger. Also, people standing in opposition to you might provoke you to behave angrily toward them, since you probably ‘believe in your heart’ that they simply ought to ‘know’ better… well, it is not really about ‘knowing’, is it. You, the Aesthetic Thinker, is actually thinking that other people ought to ‘think’ better, since, with your vague Aesthetic Way of Thinking, you have really given up on actually ‘knowing’ anything, no? You might Hope and Dream and have Faith, all very Beautiful Concepts, but if the Facts are unpleasant, then you ignore them, because, well, to recognize them and give them prominence in your Decision Making Processes, well, that would be what you would call surrendering to “Negative Thinking”, and that is perhaps the ugliest thing that you simply can’t tolerate in your personal little Beautiful World.

Anyway, I have found that a Rational Style of Thinking, because of its objectivity and repeatability of results among other rational thinkers, to be the preferable mode of Thinking in anger management and indeed in all of the Mental Health Areas. After all, why be Delusional (allowing Aesthetic Preferences to govern the Way we Interpret Reality) unless something is really seriously wrong with one’s self. One should never choose to be Delusional on purpose, even if Delusions do paint a prettier picture than Grim and Hard Reality. Aesthetics based Delusional Thinking only fills us full false hopes and impossible expectations. The Truth may not be pleasant, but, still, it is Real, and the Truth will set us Free.
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#1

Postby bert_ernie » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:34 pm

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#2

Postby Leo Volont » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:32 am

bert_ernie wrote:left brain vs right brain thinking:

http://www.ted.com/talks/iain_mcgilchrist_the_divided_brain


Hi Bert... or is it Ernie,

Really? I'm consciously involved in a lot of Left Brain and Right Brain work. During the day I study Mathematics, but at night I go into the Music Studio and practice playing Music for 3 hours, all 'by ear'.

so, to me the Right Brain seems more oriented towards Kinetic Activities and Spacial Relationships that must be seen as holistic patterns.

Now, yes, it is easy enough to assign Rational Thinking -- analysis and evaluation -- to the Left Side. But the Aesthetic Style of Thinking doesn't necessarily fall into Kinetic Activities or Patterns. It is still Thinking, only it is Pre-Rational Thinkiing. It is the kind of Thinking that Children or Primitives do. Not everybody has been acquainted with the Rules of Logic. They don't think in terms of what is proven correct or proven incorrect logically.... they think of what they like and what they don't like, what causes them pleasure and what causes them pain, and they use the Left Side of their Brain to do it, and to hash out all of the details about who they have to bop over the head or have sex with in order to get what they want.

So, no.... I will need a bit more convincing before i can follow you on this whole-heartedly, that Aesthetic Thinking is different from rational thinking because it is a Left vs. Right Brain issue.
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#3

Postby bert_ernie » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:56 am

obviously its both bert & ernie:)

did you watch the video?
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#4

Postby Leo Volont » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:42 pm

Oh, Hi Bert,

Oh, no! I didn't watch that video. I didn't know it was there. It was just a meaningless jumble of words down below what you had written... I must have thought it was some silly 'signature' that some people use, and just therefore blew it off and ignored it.

But when you brought it to mind and suggested it, THEN I saw it. It was quite interesting. But it points out in some great detail that we can not over-simplify the Right Brain Left Brain division. Both rationality and emotion require both sides of the brain.

I am surprised that they did not emphasize Pattern Recognition more as a process of the right brain. when I am practicing my music, i can really just talk to myself with the Left side of the brain about day to day happenings, while at the same time experiencing the right side of the brain comprehending and executing very intricate musical patterns. the two sides of the brain seem very good at staying out of each other's way.

But, yes, Great Video! Good Quality Production.
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#5

Postby bert_ernie » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:23 pm

it does say that.

it also suggests that in today's society, we have actually emphasized & raised up logic/language above say emotion/art. which to me was kind of the opposite of what you were suggesting.
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#6

Postby Leo Volont » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:10 am

bert_ernie wrote:it does say that.

it also suggests that in today's society, we have actually emphasized & raised up logic/language above say emotion/art. which to me was kind of the opposite of what you were suggesting.


Hmmmm.

Perhaps you are right.

Maybe I am so deeply entrenched on the Side that holds up Reason Logic and Language, that i find it appalling when very vague Aesthetically Centered people would have us substitute some vague and baseless Aesthetic Value for actual Empirical Process and Rationality.

it is true that the Powerful Elites are indeed on the Side of the Logical and Rational. Science reigns supreme, does it not.

But I am also aligned with what should be the Forces of Change. Civilization as it is is not Sustainable. But when I look around to see who else is advocating Change, well, there is a Minority of People out there who want Change also. BUT, their fuzzy and vague ways of thinking make them useless... no! They are worse than useless, as what they would do to 'fix' Civilization would only make it all the more worse. they don't fix anything. they add to the Problem.

But, yes, thank the good lord that they really are a minority.

I find them a problem, because, well, I find a lot of things to be problems.

But, yes, that was a Very Good Video. Thank you for suggesting it.
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#7

Postby Candid » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:54 am

Leo Volont wrote: I am also aligned with what should be the Forces of Change. Civilization as it is is not Sustainable. But when I look around to see who else is advocating Change, well, there is a Minority of People out there who want Change also. BUT, their fuzzy and vague ways of thinking make them useless... no! They are worse than useless, as what they would do to 'fix' Civilization would only make it all the more worse. they don't fix anything. they add to the Problem.


My dear Leo, I give you Oscar Wilde in 1891: https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... /soul-man/
and Bob Black 100 years later: http://www.primitivism.com/abolition.htm

Our world as it is is truly a case of the lunatics running the asylum. I'd like a Wilde and Black future, myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GorqroigqM
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#8

Postby Leo Volont » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:40 am

Zanoni wrote:How does being happy fit in with rational thinking?

How does one be more happy? One might answer to do the things one enjoys but that suggests and begs the question that there is things that exist that one enjoys. How is this not a blind assertion one is making?

The fundamental question that arises is the purpose of the individual reason for living for which I have no answer for such a question but there is a satisfaction in watching other people fail and come down with ill health and to generally gloat over others. I gloat over people who attack religion as if religion was the actually problem. The problem can be found everywhere even is this very room. It can be found in industry, politics, business, education, the family home basically anywhere one finds a human being. The "devil" can be found in each man.

Sam Harris once said "...imagine a universe in which every conscious creature suffers as much as possible as often as possible..." well why can't one imagine a universe where there is no suffering anymore for conscious creatures? if one investigates this question one might pierce the veil of truth.


Dear Zanoni,
I wonder why your first question would be concerning how ‘happiness’ can fit in with Rationality. It seems a bit trivial. Certainly you don’t think I proposed any connection between Rationality and Happiness, or I will really have to start Editing myself better. Yes, there are People on this Site who believe that Happiness is the Be All and End All of Life, but I find it so shallow I want to cry. Why should happiness be any kind of a priority. People are happy when things go well. Well, how often does that ever happen? Happiness is for children and old retired people, that is, people outside of the serious field of Action where things typically do not go well. Children and Retired People can be shielded from all that with games designed to provide amusement and pleasure. Zanoni, is THAT all you wish from life, to be pleasantly entertained and amused, to live a life where all you look forward too comes always just as scheduled. Yes, it would make a Great Vacation, now that I think about it, but it is not the Stuff of Life. No Great Man wishes only to be ‘happy’. That wish is generally held by the Escapists, and those most successful at attaining it are Rich People with Drug Addictions and Reliable Dealers.

Next I read of your own, well, deeply entrenched bitterness – wishing evil upon others and feeling satisfaction at other’s suffering, and rejoicing at attacks on religion and morality… basically cheering on the Legions from Hell, to use a colorful metaphor from our quickly receding Traditions. Well, if you enjoy that kind of thing… well, to each his own, as long as you do nothing to actually harm anybody or anything. But, really, while Happiness is no worthy goal in Life, still that of Bitterness which you are experiencing certainly would not be much of a help. Bitterness leads to Depression, I would think. Emotionally, it is probably best to set one’s baseline for a certain Neutrality. Not happy for nothing, but not sad because of everything. We should aim to be Clear Headed, for the most part.

Anyway, if you really want to confront your bitterness and change it, well, I could suggest a reading list. Would you like that?

Oh, there is a Universe where no creature suffers. And we will all get there Someday. It is Death. And we will all find it soon enough.
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#9

Postby bert_ernie » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:59 am

Leo Volont wrote:
bert_ernie wrote:it does say that.

it also suggests that in today's society, we have actually emphasized & raised up logic/language above say emotion/art. which to me was kind of the opposite of what you were suggesting.


Hmmmm.

Perhaps you are right.

Maybe I am so deeply entrenched on the Side that holds up Reason Logic and Language, that i find it appalling when very vague Aesthetically Centered people would have us substitute some vague and baseless Aesthetic Value for actual Empirical Process and Rationality.

it is true that the Powerful Elites are indeed on the Side of the Logical and Rational. Science reigns supreme, does it not.

But I am also aligned with what should be the Forces of Change. Civilization as it is is not Sustainable. But when I look around to see who else is advocating Change, well, there is a Minority of People out there who want Change also. BUT, their fuzzy and vague ways of thinking make them useless... no! They are worse than useless, as what they would do to 'fix' Civilization would only make it all the more worse. they don't fix anything. they add to the Problem.

But, yes, thank the good lord that they really are a minority.

I find them a problem, because, well, I find a lot of things to be problems.

But, yes, that was a Very Good Video. Thank you for suggesting it.


i don't know. i think that lack of change happening in the world mostly comes down to selfishness & i guess laziness rather than a rational/aesthetic divide. people are happy to talk about change but when it comes down to actually doing something, when it comes down to actually sacrificing they're nowhere to be seen. and hey, i'm the absolute worst when it comes to this kind of behavior so i'm not meaning to be preachy.

but maybe i see what you're talking about. maybe you're talking about say russell brand? or that kind of a character? maybe it's sort of a clash of idealism with the ruthlessness of like pragmatism. the idealists have a kind of beautiful idea of a beautiful world but completely unworkable in reality. whereas the pragmatists are like brutally effective but risk losing their humanity in a sense.

i'm kind of not sure where i am on the rationality/aesthetic scale.

robert pirsig talked about romanticism vs rationality in "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". & advocated finding a middle path between the 2. i think this book is pretty much centered on this topic. in one bit he noted that many people worship science now. that it has simply replaced religion in a way. actually a lot of that book went straight over my head. i should read it again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance

i wonder if it could be a divide between top->down or bottom->up thinking perhaps. where one mind can throw up a lot of big ideas. another can choose one idea & dig right down into the details of it. that could explain to some extent the fuzziness you're talking about.
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#10

Postby bert_ernie » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:00 am

why are you so concerned with everyone else jumping into the void with you zanoni/bodhi/candy/blitz/whatsamacallit?

if you want to wallow in your own misery then by all means continue. but i just don't understand your insistence that the rest of us join you.
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#11

Postby Leo Volont » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:56 pm

Zanoni wrote:
Yes. Bingo Bungo bango!

If you want to end all suffering you simply commit mass suicide of all!


No, No, No, Remember what I had said "That death will bring the end of all suffering, BUT, that WE WOULD ALL GET THERE SOON ENOUGH!

There is no need to rush it. Drink it in! Suffering is good for the Soul. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger, and what DOES kill us, makes us stronger than anything... as long was we wait for it. We can't just Surrender and Give Up to this this this Injustice.... this this this grossly Unfair Universe.... this this this horribly concocted Civilization, if it can be called that.... No! We must hang in there and complete the Struggle, and not give up until we make it Choke the Life out of us.

A mans got to do what a mans got to do.
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#12

Postby Leo Volont » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:01 pm

Dear Zanoni,

Forgive me if I just copy and paste a standard Book Recommendation List. they really are good books.

Let me know if you have any issues with them... We can discuss it all while you read.

Book Recommendations:

All the personal skills required for successful Anger Management, well, they cannot be learned overnight. Of course, you can go to a Therapist, but even I have gone to therapists and the first thing they do is recommend that you read Anger Management self help books. It easy to understand why. If you do some daily reading of anger issue books… making it something of a ritual behavior, then it helps you to always stay aware of your potential problems with anger. Ordinarily we might do some intensive work on ourselves in regards to our anger issues immediately after we have had some serious episode, but then as time passes, we begin to forget that we have a problem, that is, until we explode again. So we need to keep Anger at the forefront of our attention, or at least to the extent that we have some daily reminder for ourselves that we must keep up our guard and maintain all of the good practices that we had learned.

Of course, you could find your own books. Go on line and just buy the ones with reviews that seem to show that the books would appeal to you. But I have a few suggestions of my own. One book I recommend, because I found I had given it a splendid review on that Big On Line Merchandizer’s Website is “Angry All The Time: An Emergency Guide to Anger Control” by Ronald Potter-Efron (my review is on the 3rd page of the 5 Stars). I had said that it is the one book most likely to bring anybody back ‘from the edge’. Also, check out “Rage” by Ronald Potter-Efron (the same author as the previous book). I think it is the best book on the subject of extreme rage. Then there is a book about Cognitive Behavior Therapy. The premise behind cognitive behavior therapy is that when people are angry or depressed because of their negative thinking, well, it makes the most sense to address the problem by addressing the Thinking behind the problem. No, there is no churning up the past and talking about Mother and Childhood – all that is ancient history. The Idea is to simply learn how to turn off the negative thinking, or learn to think of something else instead. It also involves reevaluating your thinking in regards to whether you have been nurturing misconceptions or exaggerating generalizations. Anyway, the name of that book is “Cognitive and Dialectical Therapy Unleashed”, by James Ashley. It’s a good book and very affordable. And finally there is one book that is a bit of a favorite of mine: “Anger Management” by Peter Favaro, in that it seems to be more complete and organized than a lot of the other books.

Anyway, until your books arrive, or you go to the local bookstore and buy some, you should look over these pages. Especially, you should look at some of my posts here. I am relatively new here and so my catalog of posts is not all that extensive, and I have dealt with problems not unlike your own, using the knowledge that I have distilled from all of my reading, and also from my own experiences of dealing with my own anger issues. Good luck, hope to hear from you soon.
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#13

Postby bert_ernie » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:24 pm

is it bitterness? i'm honestly curious.

i don't know about living being suffering. that sounds a little melodramatic. i think living is just living.
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#14

Postby Leo Volont » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:16 pm

Zanoni wrote:
Now....see how rational Leo is?

The rational view is to struggle? But if I test his faith he would soon tuck tail and run!



Honestly... I have tried to be your friend. Now I can truthfully say that if life treats some people miserably, well, it is probably because they deserve it.
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