More On Conspiracy

#75

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat May 22, 2021 6:42 pm

tokeless wrote: Why is it contentious if it's legitimate?


For me, using analogies is more trying to respect forum rules and to discuss ideas. The contentious part is tertiary.

tokeless wrote:I still think Israel holds the key because of their power and ability to set the terms. These terms at present are not balanced, but Palestine can't make them


You mean Hamas can't make them. You see Hamas as the legitimate voice and government of the Palestinians?

A reason this issue is so sticky, is because it isn't strictly an "Good guy vs. Bad guy" scenario engaged in conventional conflict. It isn't two armies facing off across a battlefield. This is asymmetric warfare in an urban environment. That isn't the fault of Israel. They didn't choose that as the battlefield. Hamas chose it. And it is also a war by proxy involving multiple factions. It isn't just Israel vs. Hamas.

There is a power imbalance, but I don't think you give Hamas and the numerous factions supporting them enough credit for their power and ability to set the terms. And one of the terms they have made unequivocally clear is "no state of Israel". That's a tough nut to crack.
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#76

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat May 22, 2021 7:16 pm

tokeless wrote:Israel and Egypt, Gaza’s other neighbour, have maintained a crippling blockade..


But not crippling enough to stop the materials required to produce 4,000+ rockets.

In a "siege" nothing goes in or out. The population is quite literally starved to death, until surrender. That is not what has taken place.

https://www.doingbusiness.org/en/data/e ... k-and-gaza

It is harder to do business in Iran, Afghanistan, Venezuela, or Yemen. Maybe you don't trust the WorldBank. You can be skeptical of the source. I'm skeptical of most sources these days, including the Guardian.

Point being, the blockade is not a siege. The blockade is a tool of war being used to combat asymmetric urban warfare, the battlefield being chosen by Hamas.
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#77

Postby davidbanner99@ » Sat May 22, 2021 8:54 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
davidbanner99@ wrote:Then do you think the native American Indians are the indigenous population of America?


North "American Indians" are lumped into 10 different regions, consisting of 500+ distinct tribes that continuously fought territorial battles. Most certainly some of these wars were claims of "we were here first".

This is roughly the same in Australia, with 500+ aboriginal clans. These clans, similar to North America, would engage in warfare over territory/resources, etc. Most certainly some of the claims were a "we were here first" argument.

davidbanner99@ wrote:How would you apply the Middle East parallel to that scenario?.Or indeed Australia.


In application, the "we were here first" argument is nonsense. I certainly understand and can respect the basic idea, but at the end of day it is a rather worthless, naive argument. When push comes to shove, that argument has failed since the dawn of humanity and will always fail. It is the weakest of any claim.

In that case, the fact the Israelis solved their historical crisis through the Middle East war should relieve any misgivings you have. Same applies to Crimea, I guess. Crimea was gifted to Ukraine by Krushchev in the 1960s but Putin eventually decided it was too risky to allow NATO to use the Black Sea as a base. So, Crimea was taken back by Moscow. And the ancient state of Israel was likewise reclaimed the only way possible. Given the waves of anti semitism once more in Europe, it strikes me as a safe haven. Maybe Jews are fed up with pogroms and so forth.
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#78

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sat May 22, 2021 9:58 pm

davidbanner99@ wrote: Same applies to Crimea,


The same applies to every square meter of habitable land since the dawn of humanity. I have no misgivings.

Here is a well done video, IMO, that shows civilizations coming into existence from 3200 BC thru to 2015/16 AD.

https://youtu.be/ymI5Uv5cGU4

Consider the white areas as occupied by thousands of distinct "indigenous" tribes that face their own territorial battles, going through natural cycles of peace and conflict.

Eventually, as most of humanity transitions away from nomadic tribalism to sovereign nations, the map fills in. I'm not claiming the map is 100% accurate. I only think it is a useful illustration of the fundamental nature of humanity. Imagine forces such as drought, disease, and war contributing to mass migration.

The number of different justifications for expansion, establishing new settlements, and claiming territory is certainly diverse.
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#79

Postby tokeless » Sun May 23, 2021 6:49 am

Maybe you don't trust the WorldBank. You can be skeptical of the source. I'm skeptical of most sources these days, including the Guardian.

I'll stick with the UN who made the statement over a bank that makes money from conflict. Endless war and conflict makes great profits whilst our leaders talk of peace.
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#80

Postby quietvoice » Sun May 23, 2021 12:43 pm

tokeless wrote:Endless war and conflict makes great profits whilst our leaders talk of peace.

"All wars are bankers' wars."
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#81

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun May 23, 2021 1:11 pm

tokeless wrote:I'll stick with the UN who made the statement over a bank that makes money from conflict.


Okay....what about this guy?

https://www.facebook.com/hungry.buten/

Check out the full menu and the social media posts. That burger in the top photo looks delicious. All sorts of tasty ingredients.

And what about this guy? He lives in Gaza City.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id ... k3ODk1MjYy

For all of the biased media, normal people living in Gaza can't help but post the reality, uploading pictures of what is actually taking place in their own lives.
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#82

Postby tokeless » Sun May 23, 2021 1:48 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:
tokeless wrote:I'll stick with the UN who made the statement over a bank that makes money from conflict.


Okay....what about this guy?

https://www.facebook.com/hungry.buten/

Check out the full menu and the social media posts. That burger in the top photo looks delicious. All sorts of tasty ingredients.

And what about this guy? He lives in Gaza City.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id ... k3ODk1MjYy

For all of the biased media, normal people living in Gaza can't help but post the reality, uploading pictures of what is actually taking place in their own lives.


I don't do Facebook Richard. I would never use it for the purpose of validating anything of value if I did. So, I can't look up what you posted, but on balance, Facebook vs United Nations? All that biased media eh... why would they be that way Richard. Surely there must be some truth in it? No?
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#83

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun May 23, 2021 2:18 pm

tokeless wrote: Facebook vs United Nations? All that biased media eh... why would they be that way Richard. Surely there must be some truth in it? No?


It is not Facebook vs the United Nations. What I posted was real information by real people, real individuals living in Gaza.

Instead of using media or reports from political organizations, how about using other tools? If you were an investigative journalist, but you couldn't actually go inside of Gaza, how would you figure out the truth?

Do you think Israel and Egypt should recognize Hamas as the legitimate government of Gaza?

"Islamism in the Gaza Strip involves efforts to promote and impose Islamic laws and traditions in the Gaza Strip. The influence of Islamic groups in the Gaza Strip has grown since the 1980s. Following Hamas' victory in the 2006 Palestinian elections and a conflict with supporters of the rival Fatah party, Hamas took complete control of the Gaza Strip, and declared the "end of secularism and heresy in the Gaza Strip". For the first time since the Sudanese coup of 1989 that brought Omar al-Bashir to power, a Muslim Brotherhood group ruled a significant geographic territory. Gaza human-rights groups accuse Hamas of restricting many freedoms in the course of these attempts."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism_ ... Gaza_Strip
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#84

Postby tokeless » Sun May 23, 2021 3:01 pm

What I posted was real information by real people, real individuals living in Gaza.

Are you suggesting that all the other information provided by organisations of various sources isn't? Is the footage coming out of Gaza photo shopped to make it look more damning Richard? Do you think the UN don't rely on other accounts to help them see what is happening? All those accounts are real too Richard. Have you watched Two blue lines or is that propaganda against Israel made by Israeli Jews?
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#85

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun May 23, 2021 3:26 pm

Tokeless, do you support Hamas? Do you believe that Egypt, Israel, and the rest of the world should recognize Hamas as the legitimate leaders of Gaza?
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#86

Postby tokeless » Sun May 23, 2021 3:54 pm

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:Tokeless, do you support Hamas? Do you believe that Egypt, Israel, and the rest of the world should recognize Hamas as the legitimate leaders of Gaza?


Why would I support Hamas Richard? What I
do believe is that in times of desperation people will turn to those who say they will fight for them... this is why I think Hamas has the support currently. If things were different, if they saw a better future, free of oppression they would support someone who offered them that. People want to survive, not live in fear and struggle. Hamas exists because of the situation not because they are the best to govern. Change the situation and people will turn away from Hamas. I think everyone accepts Israel isn't going anywhere and rightly so, because they are too powerful. Netanyahu embraces the power Hamas gives him. He would love to nuke Iran but is constrained by the US and the international community... but he would do it in a heartbeat because he's lost perspective and only wants the power and control he has. Hamas and the conflict hive him that and he will never give it up. Israeli Jews can make the changes by voting him out... will they? Not whilst they have it pumped in to them that their enemies want them annihilated by any means. That's what I believe Richard.
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#87

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun May 23, 2021 4:32 pm

tokeless wrote: Israeli Jews can make the changes by voting him out... will they?


Can Hamas be voted out?

Not whilst they have it pumped in to them that their enemies want them annihilated by any means.


You think Hamas doesn't want to annihilate Israel by any means? What makes you think this?

Since you believe the UN is a credible source, here is what they have to say about the charter of Hamas,

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-182893/

4. Regarding peace, its Article 13 is totally negative: “ Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. (…) There is no solution to the Palestinian question except by Jihad. All initiatives, proposals, and International Conferences are a waste of time and vain endeavours .”

5. Religious hatred of Jews (not only of Israel) is expressed by a hadith or ‘saying’ that concludes Article 7:
“ The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews) when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say: O Muslims (…) there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. “ Only the gharkad tree [evidently a certain kind of tree] would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (this hadith , quoted from al-Bukhari and Muslim, both considered as highly reliable sources for the hadith or ‘sayings’ of the Prophet Muhammad).

6. Article 8, the slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement – Hamas (widely quoted by clerics and others) is a blueprint for jihadist terrorism: “ Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its Constitution; Jihad is its path, and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes .” 3

7. Article 28 widens the circle of hate to include all Jews: “ Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people: ‘May the cowards never sleep .’” The Charter in its preface quotes Hassan al-Banna, founder of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, as saying: “ Israel will exist and continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it .”

This is worth repeating...

“ Israel will exist and continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it .”

So you don't believe Hamas tokeless? You think the UN, quoting sections of the Hamas charter is just propaganda being "pumped" into the minds of Israelis?
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#88

Postby tokeless » Sun May 23, 2021 4:39 pm

So you don't believe Hamas tokeless? You think the UN, quoting sections of the Hamas charter is just propaganda being "pumped" into the minds of Israelis?

You know I haven't said that Richard. Do you think Netanyahu wants peace? There are no innocents on both sides but unfortunately innocent people get killed. The religious doctrine is the issue... I can't see that ever changing because people believe in their Gods. The closest thing to a delusion you can get outside of mental illness.
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#89

Postby Richard@DecisionSkills » Sun May 23, 2021 4:55 pm

tokeless wrote: Do you think Netanyahu wants peace?


I think he wants to rid Gaza of Hamas.

I think everyone wants peace, even Hamas. But, understandably it is always a qualified peace. It is peace under what conditions? With Hamas the qualified peace is the utter obliteration of Israel. For Israel, peace in Gaza is contingent on Hamas no longer being in power.

IMO, that is a big difference.
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