Let’s Practice: ‘I Flipped Out At My Wife’

quietvoice wrote:

Leo Volont wrote: the ladies are poor and trained to be subservient and so they seem irresistible.

Subservience, from the woman in the relationship — is this something you'd really like? I'm recent friends with a man who had a very subservient (late) wife, married 36 years. It seems, I mean it's so obvious to me, that he's looking to replace her with another subservient woman. But then, his wife's best friend tells me (confidentially, but we're strangers here) that his wife wanted to die, due to her relationship with her husband, and I suppose not having the strong-enough sense of self to leave the marriage. What say you, is this what a man wants?

Hi Quiet Voice,

Well, your question about the preference for Subservient Women is a complex on. Remember, I am talking about the needs of an Old Man... and Old Man who has a large estate. when I was speaking of men marrying their housekeepers, well, it was because they thought it would answer their practical needs -- to take care of them with dedication and without complaint during Old Man health episodes, and to be there to help them Socially... to host parties and to be a 'sure date' when invited out. Sort of a Mix of Companion and Live-in Nurse.


Another person had spoken of 'Age Appropriate' Spouses, but I think it was a woman. For an Old Man, the 'Age Appropriate Spouse may not be another Old Lady. the Old Lady would have needs of her own, and would need care for herself, and would be too tired to go to parties or to give them. So an 'Age Appropriate' Spouse for an Old Man is probably for a Young Spouse who has all the energy that he lacks.


and there a great many Young Women available for such a calling. Just look at it. a smart and attractive young woman graduates from College, and so now what can she do. she can try to make a career in this Day and Age of downsizing. Or she can become what they call a "Gold-Digger". she can find an Old Man who is Single and who needs Care and Support, but also needs a Credible Social Companion who will hold up her end at Parties, Dances, Clubs and Dinners. and what is the Reward? Well, right up front, I believe, there is a stated understanding that the Young Wife will be written into the Will for at least a certain large part of the Estate, to be left to her on the Gentleman's death. Even if the Old Guy last another 20 or 25 years, still, when it is Over, she will be well ahead of those other young woman who decided to go the treadmill of Wage Slavery.

Oh, years ago there was a Case. I think it was Dean Martin or Lee Marvin, or somebody famous like that. he died an left his estate to the young lady he had married only 4 or 5 years before. Well, the family went to lawyers and contested the Will (in America the Judges allow Lawyers to file suit for anything, even when it is to question iron-clad contracts which should really go without saying, as they do in France). what was interesting was that the Defense was able to bring up scores of witnesses who testified about how dutiful and attentive the young lady was, and how happy she made her husband, on the bad days as well as the good. when her husband was sick, then she was back and forth with tea and chicken soup. when he was well, she was a brilliant host of dinner parties and a prize guest all over town, and could assure the best tables in any exclusive Club or Restaurant. Well, she won the case. the Judge realized that this young woman worked very hard for an Understood Reward, and it would be indecent to cut her off for the benefit a Family that could bring forward no witnesses to their own care and attentions for the Deceased.

But, yes, remember that we are talking her of Old Men and the needs of Old Men. a Young Man, in this Day and Age would need an Independent Go Getter,,,, somebody who could still keep up the Mortgage Payment if he should be Downsized or made Redundant. For a Young Man, a 'subservient wife' would be a luxury that he would not need and probably could not afford. In the World today everyone has to pull their own weight. with the Liberation of Women in the Workforce, and having to pay Women arguably as much as they pay men, well, the result was that over the years as women got paid more, men got paid less. and so now, it takes Two Paychecks to support a Household, when before Women were Liberated, only the Man had to work. Good going Girls! Before, when you were oppressed, you could stay home and watch day time TV and drink coffee. Now you have to slave away at a job, just like your husband, and still have to come home and do all the work. Isn't liberation great!?

Dear Candid,

I'm sure you mean well, but, really!? It seems like nothing you say rings true. You remind me of an old friend of mine, God rest his soul, who used to say that he could read my mind.... that he knew what I was thinking, and the he would tell me, and nothing would seem even close.... like he was talking about somebody else.

No, I am not angry or miserable. I am quite happy. I do have friends... just a few, but good ones. I find that for the most part, chronically Lonely People are chronically dependent people. and I am not chronically dependent.

what we should think about is why somebody would be Projecting a lot of Bad Qualities onto a virtual Stranger. why would a person feel some urge or need to Demonize Somebody... no, not intentionally... but all the Ideas coming up to line up for Demonization -- ignoring all the Good and seeing only the Bad... or seeing even the good but to assign to it Evil Motives.

If you see, that is, if you understand things that are not really there, well, that is Delusional Thinking. Now, THAT, is a problem that one needs to attend to.

Hello Leo,
The question what should I do?

The simple answer

1. Apologize to wife by saying it was inappropriate and NO ONE has the right to talk to you that way. Then continue to apologize through your actions and not words. As we only need to apologize sympathetically once, whether others accept or not.

2. Remind your self daily in some way "There is nothing on this planet that is worth anything 1000 years from now or when I am with God." when small things happen or do not go your way.

Why
1. One bad moment can cause so much damage in a relationship. (if it is one bad moment) I simple apology then move on may not stop her from continuing to hold animosity towards you. Whether or not there is a smile on her face.

2. The reason for continuous conscious thoughts of nothing is worth demonstrating that kind of anger will help change your subconscious thoughts (natural behaviors) to act the right way. If you don't retrain the mind the next time a stressful moment occurs you will automatically revert back to your natural behaviors.

Hope this is helpful and answered your question effectively

Leo Volont wrote:It seems like nothing you say rings true.

This thread has taught me to question what you say, as well. I stand by what I wrote.

what we should think about is why somebody would be Projecting a lot of Bad Qualities onto a virtual Stranger. [...] Demonize Somebody... [...] assign to it Evil Motives.

You read too much into my replies. I see no mention of Bad Qualities or Evil Motives in my last post. I drew attention to the fact that you found a way to blame yourself for The Cat Incident, and apparently the answer you expected in The Case of The Ming Vase was also to blame yourself. If someone kicks himself for every little thing that goes wrong, it seems to me that would add to his distress, give him more to be angry about.

We're at cross purposes while you believe anger is a Bad Thing to be buried under self-recrimination. You see, I believe all emotions are good things, the so-called 'negative' ones among them being indicators that something needs our attention.

Another UF member has now chimed in to answer your OP as if it were true. That's three of us (out of five) who accorded you the respect to believe what you were telling us. I'm comfortable with you replying "nothing you say rings true" but I didn't set out to deceive... only to point out an apparently consistent response to anger that is less than helpful.

If I did have that Young Wife, well, as Candid pointed out, my values would have to shift instantly, from How Valuable was the Vase, to How Valuable is the Wife.

Surely, you have to consider the idea that you could find another wife, but the vase? Irreplaceable I would have thought? Interesting that you equate both the vase and the wife in 'monetary terms' though.

tokeless wrote:If I did have that Young Wife, well, as Candid pointed out, my values would have to shift instantly, from How Valuable was the Vase, to How Valuable is the Wife.

Surely, you have to consider the idea that you could find another wife, but the vase? Irreplaceable I would have thought? Interesting that you equate both the vase and the wife in 'monetary terms' though.

Hi, Tokeless,

Well, yes, I DID have to finally defend the Young Wife in monetary terms, but if you noticed, I tried to defend her an any way I could imagine.

You see, unexpected by myself, because I am a man, the Young Lady of my Imagination was attacked by Real Ladies, who always seem ready to attack each other, that is, other women... imaginary or not. They call each other names, and come up with all kinds of moral judgments against each other. To these Real Women, my imaginary Wife was just some kind of a Slut -- they called her Dispensable...and even claimed that I had inferred that, but I never did. The poor imaginary girl was being torn apart by these apparently jaded and bitter old, well, 'Ladies' we will call them. So I wheeled out any argument to defend my Imaginary Wife, ...even arguments of the Practical Nature.... that if you think a Ming Vase costs money, well, you need to get a Beverly Hill divorce to really know what spending is like...

anyway, thanks for your comment. And, yes, in real life I would have cried for days on end for my broken Ming Vase... and gone into mourning for it. But I would hope that I would be able to somehow accommodate my young wife at the same time... assuring her that it was 'all my own fault' for not securing it behind a fastened and bullet proof bell jar or something. But Life can be rough, and Relationships can have their hurdles. Indeed, that is why I really do my utmost to avoid any real relationships. I just haven't met any women yet, who will look at me, who seems to have sufficient strength of character to hold up her end of a relationship. Indeed, most men should think of this before they get too deeply involved with a particular woman. How will she handle the hurdles? So many guys fall in love with Women who want to punish them all the time for everything. How much sense does that make?

The best article I read on Relationships presented a rather simple idea, that, if it is not fun, then call it off. So many people stay in relationships because they believe the Future will get better. But, honestly, what you are getting NOW, and what you HAD BEEN GETTING, is all you can rationally expect of a relationship, isn't it. So if you find yourself NOT AS HAPPY as you were before, its time to drop the Number from your speed dial. Knock her off your Facebook. delete her emails. Fed Ex her her toothbrush and nail polish. call it quits.

But besides being a bit too leggy, well, the Imaginary Girl was working out just fine....

I think i have as good a relationship with my partner as one can. The simplicity of achieving this is to treat her/him like you do your best friend. If you think of your friend, you rarely argue and if you do you compromise and forgive without holding grudges.
You accept them for who they are and all that they are, good and 'bad'... they have permission to tell you what they think of you e.g you're being a prick, fool etc and you take it better than if your partner does.

That's my benchmark.. i wish you well in your journey to find yours.

Leo Volont wrote: the Young Lady of my Imagination was attacked by Real Ladies, who always seem ready to attack each other, that is, other women... imaginary or not.

Where, Leo? Where on this thread did anyone, male or female, attack the imaginary woman in your life?

I would hope that I would be able to somehow accommodate my young wife at the same time... assuring her that it was 'all my own fault' for not securing it behind a fastened and bullet proof bell jar or something.

This is a win-lose mentality. Someone has to be wrong. Instead of that, you and your wife could be a partnership. You mourn the vase together, and the things it would have paid for had you ever fallen on hard times. She says: "I'm so sorry I kicked the vase over. I was happy .... and careless. I know what it meant to you." You say: "We shouldn't have had it out on display. Something like that needs to be in a bank vault where no one can ever see it, much less break it." The imaginary scenario reminds me a bit of the O. Henry story The Gift of the Magi, http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stori ... fMag.shtml. A young couple find out what really matters in their marriage when each of them gives up what s/he values most in order to please the other.

I really do my utmost to avoid any real relationships. I just haven't met any women yet, who will look at me, who seems to have sufficient strength of character to hold up her end of a relationship.

In this instance you hold all women at fault. Not one of them is strong enough for you. Yet you choose to avoid real relationships, which suggests you know you are not strong enough. The other side of the coin is experiencing yourself as such a handful that no one can exist in relationship with you. This one's a lose-lose situation in which you punish yourself by remaining alone. I have no doubt there are many women in the world who would prove congenial company for you, but you won't meet any of them unless you believe they're out there -- and that you're good enough to be in relationship with any one of them.

So many guys fall in love with Women who want to punish them all the time for everything. How much sense does that make?

It makes a lot of sense in terms of our knowledge that people re-create their childhood homes when they choose an intimate partner. Plenty of women do exactly the same thing, you know. This isn't a gender divide, it's about what feels like 'home'. If one or both parents constantly criticised the child, the child chooses a partner who will do the same. It's an way of working out painful (and unconscious) childhood feelings. Until those feelings are released, a partner who offers constant love and validation just doesn't feel right.

The best article I read on Relationships presented a rather simple idea, that, if it is not fun, then call it off.

I would hope that article referred specifically to the early days of relationship, when both parties are on their best behaviour. It's a good idea to notice what irritates you about a prospective mate, and understand that if something bothers you now, that something is going to be magnified x100 when you've committed yourself. Plenty of new irritants will arise after marriage or co-habitation, so yes, it makes good sense to bail out in the early days if it isn't working. However, we all get our relationship template from what we observe in our families of origin. If we grew up in a home where dysfunction is normal, how can we trust ourselves to choose wisely?

But, honestly, what you are getting NOW, and what you HAD BEEN GETTING, is all you can rationally expect of a relationship, isn't it.

Yes. But that doesn't stop both men and women thinking if I try hard enough, she or he will change for me. This will be the proof of love so desperately needed. People rejected by a parent or parents simply can't accept an uncritical partner unless and until they learn to accept themselves. They want one who "feels like home", no matter how bad 'home' was, and to win that partner over as a way of healing the childhood rejection. It's also known as the Groucho Marx syndrome, http://heartsighttherapy.com/?page_id=15: if this woman loves and accepts me, there must be something wrong with her.

Looking for someone to blame for every little thing that goes wrong is a symptom of C-PTSD. It gives rise to what Pete Walker calls the Inner Critic, who attacks himself; and the Outer Critic, who's constantly on the lookout for faults in others. On the left-hand side of Pete's home page, http://www.pete-walker.com/, you'll see articles titled Shrinking The Inner Critic and Shrinking The Outer Critic. Both of these would help you understand and accept yourself, and that would greatly increase your capacity to love and trust someone else.

No one attacked either you or your imaginary wife here, Leo. Like you, most of us are here with good intentions.

tokeless wrote:I think i have as good a relationship with my partner as one can. The simplicity of achieving this is to treat her/him like you do your best friend. If you think of your friend, you rarely argue and if you do you compromise and forgive without holding grudges.
You accept them for who they are and all that they are, good and 'bad'... they have permission to tell you what they think of you e.g you're being a prick, fool etc and you take it better than if your partner does.

That's my benchmark.. i wish you well in your journey to find yours.

Dear Tokeless,

Oh, that sounded like a good-bye. Oh, please don’t go!

Your relationship is working, and that is great. In most relationships the constant familiarity and friction of living together, causes miner fits of peek from one party or the other, and if both parties are seldom struck by these peeves at the same time, well the long suffering and congenial ‘other’ will simply make nothing of it and it will blow over. But if both parties are really not all that patient or longer suffering, and most people aren’t, then once or twice year… and that all it takes to upset a Marriage, both parties in the relationship will go off on each other at the same time, and with nobody backing down, it could get ugly… and does. The memories of these awful experiences kind of poisons the well, and trust and communication diminish. Affection goes out the window.

Well, I know enough about myself to know that I must ‘seem’ peevish sometimes… for instance, I might see a plug slightly out of its wall receiver and think that it is a shock hazard, and that I will get to it the next time I get up to do anything. And then I see out of the corner of my eye my beloved partner going toward the plug…well, it would be just like me to say very loudly and very quickly “Don’t Touch That!” And if I haven’t married a quiet and forbearing woman, then, before I can even begin to explain, it is “Don’t yell at me! You are always yelling! I’m so tired of your constant crap…. Etc, etc, etc. “ After she gets going, the opportunity for any simple explanation is gone. The underlying hatred is already out of the bag.

So, really, I know longer look for partners. Most women seem Perfectly Okay. But it seems that it only takes annoying them once, and they are after that forever on guard, defensive, and ever ready to go on the attack themselves. What man wants to live like that?

In a way it is Modern Western Culture. Some Traditional Cultures had tried to mitigate this kind of thing – especially in the Far East. People were never supposed to be familiar… familiarity leads to all that Trouble. People were uniformly polite to each other. There was a socially accepted way for Doing everything and for Saying everything, and you did not get creative. You stayed in bounds and you lived a happy life.

But in the West, everyone is always half in your face and ready go to fists. It must be the stupid movies or television. The Screenwriters thought it was boring for people to live together happily… and quietly. There had to be a smart remark for everything, but left to common people, the remarks just became crass and hostile.

But, congratulations for yourself. I think about 5% of men and about an equal percentage of women, have naturally quiet and forgiving natures, and so they manage to forever go on and on, without ever ‘poisoning their own well’ of happiness. Good for you.

Candid wrote:Instead of that, you and your wife could be a partnership. You mourn the vase together...

Of course, you have to be on your own side before you can expect to form such a partnership.

Leo Volont wrote:I know enough about myself to know that I must ‘seem’ peevish sometimes…
well, it would be just like me to say very loudly and very quickly...

It's normal, even mandatory, for an adult to feel peevish and have almost-daily minor fits of pique (or even miner fits of peek) if he's lived through early abandonment and constant disappointment of his need for love since before he can even remember. He doesn't know why he's perpetually irritable so he blames himself, a pattern he developed before he was able to identify and express his justifiable outrage.

Real Ladies ... always seem ready to attack each other, that is, other women... imaginary or not. They call each other names, and come up with all kinds of moral judgments against each other. To these Real Women, my imaginary Wife was just some kind of a Slut...
The poor imaginary girl was being torn apart by these apparently jaded and bitter old, well, 'Ladies' we will call them...

Again, I challenge you to point out where the Real Women on this thread made a single negative comment about the imaginary one. You may quote me.

Most women seem Perfectly Okay. But it seems that it only takes annoying them once, and they are after that forever on guard, defensive, and ever ready to go on the attack themselves. What man wants to live like that?

Not you, clearly. But be clear that these are your opinions of women. Owning your feelings is a necessary first step to figuring out where they started.

The underlying hatred is already out of the bag.

Whose hatred is this? Is it everybody else's ... or could it be yours? Unexpressed rage has to turn into anger at the world, or it turns on its host in the guise of self-destructive behaviours that include avoidance and self-isolating. I feel intolerable anger = someone has to be wrong, so it must be me (Inner Critic, http://www.pete-walker.com/shrinkingInnerCritic.htm) or everyone else (Outer Critic, http://www.pete-walker.com/pdf/ShrinkingOuterCritic.pdf). As Pete Walker points out, these two Critics take turns. They can both be tamed.

Leo, I'm trying to help you... and you perceive it as attack. I have no doubt you feel and respond the same way IRL. Tokeless has told you succinctly what works for him in relationship, but Tokeless has achieved a level of trust and respect. His partner is a friend. She isn't driven by some perverse covert need to tie him up in knots, so that he has to be constantly on guard against her. Somehow you've polarised the genders -- men behave like this, women behave like that -- and you keep looking for evidence that it's virtually impossible for one member of each to live together happily.

You can go on being the crusty old bachelor -- a bit of a cliché -- as long as you like. Or you can understand that men and women want the same things in relationship: love, respect, trust, tolerance. If you keep looking for evidence that women can't be trusted, you'll go on finding it.

Hi Leo,
I'm not going anywhere, but i also don't 'indulge' people who want to spout out their angst and not try to change.. there's bar tenders for that. I'm not saying that's you btw.

Your relationship is working, and that is great. In most relationships the constant familiarity and friction of living together, causes miner fits of peek from one party or the other, and if both parties are seldom struck by these peeves at the same time, well the long suffering and congenial ‘other’ will simply make nothing of it and it will blow over.

My relationship has plenty of those because we're both human and get pissed at things and each other.. we sometimex clash but soon make up because we love each other and care when the other person has been on the other end of our frustrations... we never go to bed on a row. A bit like best friends i guess.



But if both parties are really not all that patient or longer suffering, and most people aren’t, then once or twice year… and that all it takes to upset a Marriage, both parties in the relationship will go off on each other at the same time, and with nobody backing
down, it could get ugly… and does.

If you hold on to the resentments they will erode over time.. the key is why that happens
and keeps happening i guess.

The memories of these awful experiences kind of poisons the well, and trust and communication diminish. Affection goes out the window.

That sounds to me to related to being rejected at some point, so you don't put yourself
out there to be hurt again.

Well, I know enough about myself to know that I must ‘seem’ peevish sometimes… for instance, I might see a plug slightly out of its wall receiver and think that it is a shock hazard, and that I will get to it the next time I get up to do anything.And then I see out of the corner of my eye my beloved partner going toward the plug…well, it would be just like me to say very loudly and very quickly “Don’t Touch That!”

So, why do you leave the plug that way until she notices it? I think i realised is that when i say leave a piece of paper on the floor at home.. what I'm actually doing is expecting her to pick it up.. not consciously but who else will pick it up. There's only us. I then notice she's about to pick it up so say "I was just gonna do that".. too late, she did. Over time that
can feel like being taken for granted. Also, your 'partner' isn't a child and knows the dangers of plug sockets does she not?

And if I haven’t married a quiet and forbearing woman, then, before I can even begin to explain, it is “Don’t yell at me! You are always yelling! I’m so tired of your constant crap….
Etc, etc, etc. “ After she gets going, the opportunity for any simple explanation is gone. The underlying hatred is already out of the bag.

What was it that made you love and marry her in the first place?

So, really, I know longer look for partners. Most women seem Perfectly Okay. But it seems that it only takes annoying them once, and they are after that forever on guardefensive, and ever ready to go on the attack themselves.

Do you have abandonment history Leo? I did and that sounds familiar for me

What man wants to live like that?

A hurt one who keeps repeating a relationship pattern???

But, congratulations for yourself. I think about 5% of men and about an equal percentage of women.

I don't really do %'s Leo, 76% are made up or is it 89%... I just try to appreciate the beautiful woman who shares my life. She's my 1% and 100% i guess.

Dear Tokeless,

Oh, I am so sorry that I sounded 'needy'. Yes, of course, I could use a 'bartender' but I have become a senior citizen on a fixed income, and well, unless it is a very expensive bar, or a real dump, the places are too busy to get much one on one time with a good counseling Bar Tender. anyway, forgive me for my obvious dependency.

Oh, yes! That was the Secret. NEVER GO TO BED WHILE ANY ISSUE IS STILL LEFT HANGING. Settling things and sleeping peacefully is the way to go. If you fall asleep with a grudge, then you will wake up with a well constructed vindictive plan for destroying your enemy, but much more complicated than whatever it would have taken to fix the problem the night before.

thanks for the insight.

Hi again Leo.. I'm sorry if that's how it came across. You are welcome to speak with me as you wish. All things are possible Leo. We just need to want them more than the things we hold on to and don't want. There are also times when it isn't that simple. My mother hates my dad because of various things, but she would also defend him from outside attack. They are mid 70's and very co-dependent and for my mum the reality of being trapped with him, until death takes one of them fuels her sadness and bitterness. I did sdvise her 40 years ago to leave him. but catholic guilt saw to thaf idea.
I hope you find happiness in some form or other Leo.. as always, my best wishes.
Here and if needed, minus the alcohol

tokeless wrote:All things are possible Leo. We just need to want them more than the things we hold on to and don't want. There are also times when it isn't that simple.

Yes, quite. One of the most common is people being badly hurt very early in life, never forming trust in others, collecting lots of bad experiences as they try to do and have what their peer group does so easily and takes for granted, becoming embittered, judging the world as unsafe, withdrawing and isolating themselves, then justifying that stance by pointing to all the 'evidence' that people can't be trusted. After that, without some kind of circuit-breaker, you're in hell. Alone in hell.

The only cure is to start noticing the good and loving things people do in the world. It starts with loving who you are: just making a simple declaration that you're a good bloke, you've always done your best, you deserve happiness in relationship with others and you're going to do what it takes to make that happen.

Do you have abandonment history Leo? I did and that sounds familiar for me

I'm in this club, too, and I know all about being alone for long periods of time, then finding myself among Other People, then finding it stressful (comparing myself to them), and then out comes the irritability, the passive-aggressiveness, and what do you know? I've got even more evidence that other people are okay but I'm not, so I can't trust them; or I can't trust myself to be with them, and back I'd go for another stint in my barricaded house with the KEEP AWAY sign out the front.

These entrenched ideas about ourselves and Other People are programmed into us. From birth until the time we start school, our nuclear family is The World. In those years we experience a million and one major and minor Incidents from which we infer Who We Are and how the rest of the world can be expected to treat us. The lucky ones are loved, validated, made to feel important. The unlucky ones are beaten for every minor infraction -- parents repeating their own tough childhoods -- or used as sexual playthings. For them, the mistreatment is obvious... although if no one intervenes it's surprising how many of them are able to deny, minimise or excuse it for years.

Then there are those whose plight is only now coming to mainstream attention: the ones who are adequately housed, dressed and fed, sent to school and escorted to appropriate medical appointments, but constantly told through a word or a look that they're not good enough. They're unhappy and they don't know why. They're angry and they don't know why. They're the ones who get bullied in school, who make friends with Bad Influences, who don't get invited to out-of-school stuff, who apparently prefer to play by themselves or who get obsessed about their pets. Their core belief is "no one likes me", and even when they discover the wider world they go on finding evidence for it.

Finding The Evidence is crucial. Assuming that you still brush up against Other People, you can start a kind of diary (for your eyes only) to record the things that go right in your interactions with others. It has three columns: date, what happened, what you conclude about yourself. For example:

7/12/2015 // two people replied to my Let's Practice thread // I'm worthy of attention
7/13/2015 // chatted to a woman in the checkout line // I am friendly and helpful

Include only positive interactions -- because you've spent years gathering evidence against yourself and Other People, and we need to counteract that. Just a few minutes at the end of the day recalling what went right will begin to change your outlook on life, so you'll be eager to get out and about and collect more evidence.

Leo Volont wrote:I have become a senior citizen on a fixed income, and well, unless it is a very expensive bar, or a real dump, the places are too busy to get much one on one time ...

Bars really aren't good places to meet people. Neighbours are good. Volunteering is good. Any place where you're regularly exposed to the same people makes a good practice situation. Consider what kind of conversations and activities you enjoy, and scout around for an organisation where people like you get together. If you're comfortable identifying as a senior citizen, get long to one of those groups. I qualify, but I personally wouldn't join a group whose only commonality is our age. I got a huge charge, confidence boost and like-minded friends by starting a group of my own, though.

You can do this, Leo. The world is waiting for you.

Candid wrote:
Leo, I'm trying to help you... and you perceive it as attack. I have no doubt you feel and respond the same way IRL. Tokeless has told you succinctly what works for him in relationship, but Tokeless has achieved a level of trust and respect. His partner is a friend. She isn't driven by some perverse covert need to tie him up in knots, so that he has to be constantly on guard against her. Somehow you've polarised the genders -- men behave like this, women behave like that -- and you keep looking for evidence that it's virtually impossible for one member of each to live together happily.

You can go on being the crusty old bachelor -- a bit of a cliché -- as long as you like. Or you can understand that men and women want the same things in relationship: love, respect, trust, tolerance. If you keep looking for evidence that women can't be trusted, you'll go on finding it.

Dear Candid,

Thank you. Yes, I did think you were attacking me. Maybe you should watch your clever tone and what seems to be an inclination to score points; but, yes, that could just be how I am perceiving you while you are actually trying to be entirely clinical and trying to be objectively helpful. But here I do see that you are indeed reaching out and just not trying to kill me… a death by a thousand needles… as they say.

Yes, you did make some good points, but I think you are very optimistic about People’s Behavior Patterns given that there are not any really solid Cultural or Traditional paradigms for maintaining Good Relationships in Western Culture. People seem to just behave as Inclination directs. Now, you have to remember how Old I am… I am guessing I am more than twice as old as you are. In my Hey Day I was good looking, a smooth talker, and tried to be agreeable with everybody. In short, I WAS NOT ALWAYS LIKE THIS.

But I learned. In Western Culture there is simply no guidance, given from a young enough age, to give people a good sense on how they are supposed to maintain their conduct in relationships. What the West does have is Television and Movies. And how does TV and Movies Work? Well, it is all about Conflict Resolution. “Boy Meets Girl, Boy Loses Girl, Boy Gets Girl”… that has been the TV and Hollywood Formula since Forever. ‘Boy Meets girl is fine. Boy gets girl is fine. But everything in between is a real problem. TV and Movies teach us all to fight and be nasty to each other. If we were all just sweet and nice simple people, than maybe we would be thoughtful and considerate to each other, but with thousands of hours a Media Indoctrination teaching us to be clever and biting, and to speak our minds, and always stand up for our principles, and with the TV and Hollywood Expectation that Everything Will always Work Out, no matter how mean we were…. Well…

It is not just MY OPINION. I dated actively for more than 40 years. I even got married once. Please, extend to me the courtesy that I may have seen something out there that you have not caught up with yet. Maybe you are Thinking from Principle… how things SHOULD BE. My point of view is how it actually IS… given my empirical experience. I have no intellectual ax to grind. Heck, I just wanted to get laid like everybody else. So the opinions I acquired did not come at my own welcoming. The Opinions I acquired by empirical observation were indeed against my own inclination and desires.

Candid, maybe you are still talking and presenting discussion points simply from the stand point of Hope… how you hope things will work out for yourself. But, really, have you ever actually considered the real probable odds, that in the milieu of Western Cultural Chaos, that you will find a relationship in which you and your partner behave in ways that are mostly positive and never hit those deep negatives (encouraged by the continuous bombardment of media) that ruin most relationships. Look at the Divorce Statistics! Look at the Media! The subtext of most TV and Movies is that MOST RELATIONSHIPS DON’T WORK… that a Good and Working Relationship is something of a Miracle, and deserves a Movie to be made about it.

But, thanks, Candid… I have seen that you are really sincerely trying to help. I was not always so sure of that. But, yes, that may be my disposition to see that people in the West don’t want to make friends and have smooth relationships… they want to One Up each other and score points…. Battle battle battle. Makes a good TV show, but it creates a mass culture of miserable lives.