More On Conspiracy

tokeless wrote:Israel puts claim to the land based on the bible. The argument is that God gave them the land, whereas Ottoman writings put Palestinians there over 4000 years ago. However, that for me is not the issue. The issue is the blatant land grabbing, annexing and slow destruction of another nation and it's people. This ignores international law, which we are all supposed to be under by definition. No other country on this planet would get away with this without being ostracised by the rest of the world. Israel can ignore it because America supports them unequivocally. They even refuse to acknowledge they are a nuclear country officially, yet NK, Iran get sanctioned for trying to become one.
This can't be right. Yes, terrorist groups like Hamas are wrong and should be fought, but the people being oppressed are ordinary people and Hamas is being used as justification for what they do to them. When the UK had troops in Ireland, they did bad things to the people there because we were fighting the IRA... we looked for peace and eventually left the occupation. Israel says it wants peace but it's actions block that. To accept a 2 nation state would mean accepting Palestinians having a right to land, laws, self governing and that is not acceptable. They want Israel all to themselves, just for Jews and nobody else.... has echoes of nazi Germany to me. A pure nation, one blood

The Palestinians are not the historically indigenous people. This is why internet forums are so misleading. Modern Palestinians arrived after the destruction of Israel by Rome. They migrated there due to ethnic cleansing of Jews. From various countries including modern Turkey.
The authentic Palestinians were Canaanites and these intermarried with Hebrews. Millenia ago.
Reality is now that the days of imperialism are long gone and Israel is now a global power. Should Germany threaten this tiny country again it would be reduced to radioactive dust.

That doesn't address their behaviour or the lock out of discussion about it. Thankfully we will never see another holocaust, and Germany has totally accepted responsibility for its past. In terms of the original point, when we look at the power of the Jewish/Zionist movement it isn't hard to think there might be some elements of truth, seeing as the world bank, the fed reserve and Hollywood is heavily loaded with Jewish people. When Jeremy Corbyn raised the issues of Palestine and Israel he committed political suicide as the whole industry turned on him. No proof of him being antisemitic, just that he didn't agree with the whole findings of a report of antisemitism in the party. Basically a witch hunt. That's real power and it lends itself to conspiracy even if not true, but you can't discuss it because it's antisemitism, or portrayed as that.

tokeless wrote: Thankfully we will never see another holocaust...

You don't think genocide is possible? There are plenty of examples of "ethnic cleansing" over the last several decades. I don't think humanity has fundamentally changed. In my opinion, the systematic murder of millions is still a real possibility.

When people say that they want to destroy or eradicate an entire group of people, I tend to believe them.

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:

tokeless wrote: Thankfully we will never see another holocaust...

You don't think genocide is possible? There are plenty of examples of "ethnic cleansing" over the last several decades. I don't think humanity has fundamentally changed. In my opinion, the systematic murder of millions is still a real possibility.

When people say that they want to destroy or eradicate an entire group of people, I tend to believe them.

I do appreciate that atrocities happen, probably more than is reported. My comment was in the context of Jews and Israel as that is the argument thrown about by Netanyahu. It stokes fear and therefore gains acceptance and agreement with his actions. As the saying goes, bad things happen when good people do nothing. The systematic destruction of the Palestinian people is an example of this. The world sees it, but because it's Israel/US collaboration it is reported as defending themselves....

tokeless wrote: The systematic destruction of the Palestinian people is an example of this.

Would you say that when systematic destruction of a people occurs that the population of the people being destroyed would rise or fall?

If one group is overwhelmingly more powerful than another group, capable of genocide, what do you think would happen to the population of the targeted group?

Richard@DecisionSkills wrote:

tokeless wrote: The systematic destruction of the Palestinian people is an example of this.

Would you say that when systematic destruction of a people occurs that the population of the people being destroyed would rise or fall?

If one group is overwhelmingly more powerful than another group, capable of genocide, what do you think would happen to the population of the targeted group?

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean, would the people being destroyed drop in number because they are being destroyed?

tokeless wrote:Not sure what you mean. Do you mean, would the people being destroyed drop in number because they are being destroyed?

Yes.

Historically, it seems like when one group targets other groups for destruction it typically results in a significant loss in the target population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

Check out the far right column. It shows proportion of the population killed.

I don't see any reports of a people being destroyed where the population of the targeted group doubles, triples, quadruples, etc.

Oh I see what you mean. I guess I used the term destroyed literally. Those figures are for genocide and whilst the Israeli government isn't committing actual genocide it won't register. I look at destruction in several ways other than to physically kill you. To take away your home, work and ability to make choices and make you stateless is to destroy you and all that you are. The Palestinian people in Gaza are walled in with no rights to self determination... that to me is destruction.

tokeless wrote: The Palestinian people in Gaza are walled in with no rights to self determination... that to me is destruction.

Who do you think governs the people behind the walls? Who is responsible for providing the people with the right to self determination?

Currently Hamas is, but with limitations imposed by Israel. Electricity and water are controlled by Israel, so it does resemble a prison structure, where inside, on the landings, certain individuals will control what happens on an informal basis... usually the most brutal cons. However, they are controlled by the wardens in terms of when the cells are locked and opened, when they eat, what they eat, when they shower and have visits. This can be done with less individuals than number of inmates. Can the people of Gaza leave when they want, go where they want, build homes, start businesses? No, not without permission. Is that self governing?

Here is a different analogy than the prison.

You have a relative living in a rather large home. It's a mansion. One day, you move in with your extended family. In doing so, you displace a number of the other people living in the home. Same as your relative, they have also been living in the mansion a long time. You don't destroy these other people. You don't kill them. But, they can't stay in the rooms they want. You have the power. You want to protect the relative that was already living there, and you also want to protect the mansion from being taken over by next door neighbors.

Long story short, you are the law now.

Understandably, the people forced to move to other parts of the mansion are not very happy. You took the prime real estate, including the master bedroom. They vow to kick you out, even kill you if they must. But, they don't have any power.

Now, in the back of the mansion there is a room with two doors. One door leads into the mansion. Another leads to a neighbors home. Two or three of the people displaced live in that room, while another six or seven live in other rooms in the mansion.

One of neighbors living in the mansion near the back door is a man called Hamas. He visits those people in that back room day after day. He brings gifts, he gains favor. This neighbor tells the other occupants they will help them regain control of the entire mansion. They will kill you, your relative, your extended family, anything it takes to gain control of the whole mansion. Again, this is understandable given the people in this room lost power and have been displaced.

Here is the twist. One day Hamas visits and does not leave. In fact, they get into a fight with one of the current occupants, kill him and install themselves as owners of the room. As this takes place the backdoor of the room is blockaded...BY YOUR NEIGHBOR. Even your neighbor wants nothing to do with Hamas. Equally, you blockade the door that leads into the mansion.

This is different than your prison analogy.

This back room is not a prison. It is being blockaded for a very good reason. You don't want members of your family or any of the people that are living in other rooms of the mansion to be killed. Yes, you control the food/electricity to this room, but you don't destroy the people in that room. You don't commit genocide. Yes, the people are not allowed to freely go back and forth. It is a blockade. Why?

You can't get rid of the neighbor that has taken control and is organizing attacks against your family. They have blended in with the other people in the room and they have the support of many people in that room. They have established a dictatorship inside that room.

What do you do tokeless?

tokeless wrote:That doesn't address their behaviour or the lock out of discussion about it. Thankfully we will never see another holocaust, and Germany has totally accepted responsibility for its past. In terms of the original point, when we look at the power of the Jewish/Zionist movement it isn't hard to think there might be some elements of truth, seeing as the world bank, the fed reserve and Hollywood is heavily loaded with Jewish people. When Jeremy Corbyn raised the issues of Palestine and Israel he committed political suicide as the whole industry turned on him. No proof of him being antisemitic, just that he didn't agree with the whole findings of a report of antisemitism in the party. Basically a witch hunt. That's real power and it lends itself to conspiracy even if not true, but you can't discuss it because it's antisemitism, or portrayed as that.

The first problem is I think the way you are using the term "Palestinians" in the sense they are the true indigenous people and the Israelis occupiers. This really is an example of how the internet bounces out random interpretations, motivated by religious influence, popular bias and historical misrepresentation. I studied Ancient History at university so assure you my argument is based on fact and not race or religion. I'm not Jewish so have no reason at all to be biased. However, to my horror, I found on the internet doctored maps where Israel was originally represented on the authentic ancient maps. This was often replaced by "Palestine" with the idea Jews were never an indigenous people at all. Plus, I repeat, the Jews were driven out of Israel by the Romans after the Jewish revolt under Hadrian (who built the famous wall).
So the millions of Jewish people who were scattered in Europe and Russia do, in fact, have a heritage as well as a language. At one time, I even considered studying ancient Hebrew but decided Sumerian would be personally more interesting.
Sure, the people living in the disputed territories have rights and what's now taking place is sad to see. I wouldn't say the Israelis are blameless but if rockets were now randomly fired at Moscow or Washington, I find it hard to believe they would do nothing.
I think there is deep prejudice against Jewish people on a global level and Europe seems to have learned little from WW2, Polish occupation and the Nazi death camps - of which I have printed photos from a Soviet source. And that's why Israel needs a powerful military structure as well as an actual state.

Ok gentlemen. Enjoy your freedoms, especially you Richard. You live to travel and imagine if for no reason you were told you now can't. Anyway, enjoy.

"Hadrian had a very difficult time conquering these rebels, some of whom hid out in caves on the western coast of the Dead Sea, where letters written by Bar-Kokhba have been discovered. Some 580,000 Jews perished, and the Romans also suffered great losses until they finally conquered the rebels. Furious at this renewed Jewish uprising and without a shred of patience left, they dismantled Jerusalem and rebuilt the city as “Aelia Capitolina” in honor of Aelius, Hadrian’s family name.

All Jews were expelled from the city, and only Gentiles were allowed to live there."

So, the Jewish population itself was ethnically cleansed and Palestinians are in fact those who migrated to Roman Judea in their place

davidbanner99@ wrote:"Hadrian had a very difficult time conquering these rebels, some of whom hid out in caves on the western coast of the Dead Sea, where letters written by Bar-Kokhba have been discovered. Some 580,000 Jews perished, and the Romans also suffered great losses until they finally conquered the rebels. Furious at this renewed Jewish uprising and without a shred of patience left, they dismantled Jerusalem and rebuilt the city as “Aelia Capitolina” in honor of Aelius, Hadrian’s family name.

All Jews were expelled from the city, and only Gentiles were allowed to live there."

So, the Jewish population itself was ethnically cleansed and Palestinians are in fact those who migrated to Roman Judea in their place

No problem David.. really. Enjoy the beauty of your knowledge and freedoms.