Trauma and perception.

Hi atci,

Welcome to the forum.

I think you're asking whether how we think about something affects how we feel. Is that right?

Certainly the way that we perceive reality, our thinking style, will affect how we feel about things.

As John Milton put it 'The mind is a place of its own, and can make a heaven of hell, or a hell of heaven'. Shakespeare wrote 'There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so'.

And the good news is that the way we think and feel about things can change.

You say that this depresses you incredibly, you may find it beneficial to have a look at The Depression Learning Path

Best wishes

Michael,

Thanks for your reply.

I know that our perception of reality affects how we feel, especially when we see everything with a negative light.

My question, at least I think, is a little bit different. Ten years ago, I remember looking out my window as people were passing by in my country-side home town. It happened to be a time when I was thinking a lot about existential questions (our purpose here, god, et cetera). I suppose it was becaus of my sadness from my parent's divorce that I started questioning everything around me. I remember right now, after a decade has passed by, exactly what I was doing when the idea came to my mind that we are just more or less objects of no particular importance. The moment I looked around with this new perception I saw everything fitting it. I hate that perception. It scares me. It feels almost like a traumatic event, but I am not sure if it is. It recurs all the time, and when it does, because it scares me, it depresses me and stresses me so much. And I can't just shake it off. It is so real. I start wondering if I am loosing my mind. Do I make sense?

Thanks for all of your help. I took the learning path and it was greatly educational. I just feel that if I didn't have this perception coming back to me all the time then I wouldn't be depressed, so I need to tackle that.

Hi atci

That perception certainly caused a shift in your mind, and indeed this is what happens to us when we suddenly see things in a wholly different light.

What it can help you realise is that there really are different ways of understanding things. How do we know which way is the "right" way? Is that even a sensible question?

Any perception that we have can be questioned. For instance, if you think of the perception that we are all just objects of no particular importance, you can ask several questions about it. For instance, what does "important" mean? What gives something importance? Important to whom?

Another question might be, if this perception is true, what consequences follow from that? What would it mean for me? Or for others? How would it affect what I decide to do?

You mentioned that the thought scares you. So my next question would be, what is it that you find scary about being an object of no particular importance?

This is kind of heavy stuff, but I hope it might help to think as clearly as we can about exactly what is in this perception of yours.

What do you think?

Kathleen

Hi atci,

Thanks for replying with more information.

From taking the depression learning path you'll know that factors in depression are a particular thinking style, leading to too much rumination on for example, existential questions.

As Kathleen says there are many different ways of understanding things, and indeed before you had your current beliefs you had another set of beliefs. Our beliefs can and do shift over time.

I would add one further thing for you to consider, how has having this belief served you?

There is a part of the brain (the Reticular Activating System) that acts like a filter to determine what comes into our consciousness, and it filters according to our beliefs and values; filtering out things that don't fit in with our beliefs or priorities.

If you hold a belief that 'we are just more or less objects of no particular importance' then your brain will bring to your awareness things that fit that belief and allow you to ignore evidence to the contrary.

You could get curious and try on some very different beliefs for size, imagine that you had those beliefs, or step into the shoes of someone who does hold those beliefs.

Notice how it's different when you try those different beliefs, even if only for a few moments. You might surprise yourself and find a fresh perspective that is more 'you'.

Let us know how you get on.


Best wishes

Kathleen and Michael,

Your questions are great. Thank you immensely. They have really made me think (not that I do little of that to begin with).

Kathleen, you asked, "if this perception is true, what would it mean for me?". For me, my perception of us being mere objects of no importance, would mean that there is no purpose for what we do; that life is a 'joke', where simply because we were placed here (on Earth) without an option, we need to find things to entertain us and make us happy. I know this sounds like depression, and it most likely is, but it stems from this perception of mine. I don't really understand it, regardless how much I educate myself about the mind. But I am also aware that it is very hard to think outside the box, especially if we feel we are locked in the box itself. Hence, reason why I come to this website and post these messages with hope of other people shining light to something I may have not conscidered (and you've done that nicely, thanks .

I have tried to not let this perception affect me, but I start wondering if the way that I am seeing the world is correct (resulting in high anxiety). If it is not, then I must be crazy to be seeing things they way I do. And if it is, I wouldn't be able to live with it because it makes me feel so worthless and nothing more than the result of evolution (or god); again, with no option to be here. I hate having these thoughts, and questioning why we look the way we look, et al. They depress me so much and make me ruminate a lot more. I literally have to force myself to see things differently or distract myself, but it is very hard.

As Michael has suggested, I have tried to look at different beliefs and see how I feel, but often times when I do this I get anxious wondering again if I am loosing my mind, and anxious because I feel like I don't know what beliefs are right or wrong.

I apologize for writing and whining so much, but on the same breath, I am so happy I get to discuss this with you. Again, thank you for all of your help.

Hi atci
I would certainly agree with the comments: peception is everything and we are defined by the way we interpret and react to reality. I have also been down a similar road to you when thinking about existance, though it is difficult to say which is cause and which effect when looking at my depressive tendancies - certainly depressive episodes and perceiving reality as a total waste of time coincided at a quite early age. I'll have to think about this one a little more...but not too much

For example, during my worst cases of "this is totally pointless" I take the univeral view akin to yours: we're a bunch of unfortunate molecules which will be destroyed when the universe collapses in 10 billion years so why bother etc.

I generally get over these thoughts in two ways:

1. Short term: To follow through the logic on interpretation and reaction to reality I also consider that I am part of other people's and the world around me, how I react in their reality could make a huge difference to them. This makes me feel I have some value to add as I have improved their perceived reality, even though it doesn't totally agree with mine. Giving a pet a treat is a good example, or a hug and reassurance to someone. It takes an effort to do it when I'm feeling low, but makes a huge difference.

2. Longer term! Another view I take is that all the life we see around us now, including ourselves, is the result of many billions of years of development. Do you think that our ancestors crawling in the mud thought about their purpose - doubtful, they probably couldn't think at all and reality stretched to the size of the detritus supply. Maybe, just maybe, our lack of understanding now about where we are going and what we are doing here will be delivered in a reflective question from a being many billions of years ahead of us in a better position to answer that question. In the meantime all we can do is struggle on and put the steps in place for this, and if we don't manage it than maybe somewhere something else will and maybe understanding will be complete - this gives me a great deal of hope for the future and a great deal of motivation to carry on, to move the world forward and do my bit to get us there. If you don't think you can make a difference just think of all those examples of little thoughts/ideas have resulting in major changes - the internet is a good example. Maybe we just aren't ready yet to interpret reality as it should be, maybe we are just at that unfortunate stage of enough thought to question, but not enough to understand - there are plenty of more examples of this problem when you look near to home...

All the best.

This is becoming a great thread!

Here's a quote from R.D. Laing:

"The range of what we think and do is limited by what we fail to notice - and because we fail to notice that we fail to notice, there is nothing we can do to change until we notice."

You can see the connection between this and what Mike was saying about how we filter out things which are not in line with our current set of beliefs, and with atci's comment about how tricky it is to experiment with different sets of beliefs.

When you experimentally assume a different set of beliefs, and act as if that set was "true", it can feel very uncomfortable, and all those questions about madness, and right and wrong, come into your head, and very soon you can find yourself heading right back into your own currently held set of beliefs.

But of course, logic tells us that our "current set of beliefs" must be subject to exactly the same questions. Am I mad to believe what I believe now? Am I right or wrong to believe this? It's just harder to apply those questions, because "what I believe" feels right (which is not the same thing as saying that I like what I believe, of course ).

However, making an effort to ask the questions, to challenge the apparent "obvious rightness" of what I myself think, is one way we have of thinking "out of the box" in which we are confined (or at least of lifting the lid ).

We can go on about the philosophical implications of this (it is very interesting), but more useful might be to stick with the question Mike posed: What is the use of this belief? What practical purpose does it serve? If I continue to believe in it, does that help me to function better in my life and world, or does it hinder me?

I guess, from what atci and albert are saying, that they currently find this belief a hindrance, at least in the sense that they experience uncomfortable and unwelcome emotions in relation to it, and then find it hard to enjoy the life that they have.

However, I know of several people who find this same belief very liberating - to them it means that they are free to "make their own meaning" rather than to search for ever for a "grand plan" imposed by some outside force. If it doesn't matter very much what you do, then you can certainly do what you like to do, and be the kind of person you like to be. So you can be a "good person", not because you follow a moral law given by religion or society, and are good in order to earn spiritual reward later or avoid punishment now, but because you yourself like being good.

Enough, already! It's early in the morning!

Kathleen

Hello,

atci, it's great that you've had the flexibility to start thinking about things differently, even though that wasn't entirely comfortable. One of the great assets of people who feel really confident is that they can tolerate a degree of uncertainty. They know that they can't know everything for sure and that right and wrong are not absolutes.

I can tell that you're a great thinker, so I wonder if I could ask you to ponder the following four questions:

What will happen if you do change your beliefs?

What won't happen if you do change?

What will happen if you don't change?

What won't happen if you don't change?

Let us know how you get on.

Best wishes

Good questions, Mike!

By the way, atci, my son suggests that if one feels of "no importance" a good way to deal with this is to go and do something which others might think "important" - a bit like what Albert was saying above, I think!

Kathleen

my first post, maybe im off base with the philosophical stuff here?


What do you mean by trauma? A life changing event, or way the mind operates. Trauma, epiphany.

I think trauma is something that physicaly, psychologialy harms you. It can be something that doesnt seem bad, but rocks your thought patterns so much it does cause harm. A metaphorical blow to the head. Physiological if you consider that thoughts come from a very physical thing.

A new gearing of how you perceive the world can often be the result of trauma, as your mind frantically tries to deal with the overwhelming stimuli. There are alot of ways the mind can be shocked, and alot of ways it deals with the shock. It might help to remember if you felt you were in a state of danger when you had the experience, or if you were casually indifferent, etc. Was there anything bad that could of triggered it? A present physical, or mental threat? A thought? If you want to uproot this perception, finding the source and detaching from it may help. Might be your overall state of mind though. From your parents divorce. Im guessing you didnt have any control in that and felt powerless. Guessing here. Maybe your new outlook snapped from that. Now that you have this perception though, theres probably no right or wrong with it. You have to decide whether you want to change it or not.

I dont know about that gearing itself being trauma. If it is still with you, and bothers you in any way. I dont know if you could call it good either.

Things like this cause anxiety because you are basically questioning your existence. Nobody likes to do that. When you do it has a lasting effect. One question leads to the next, and the next.

I believe that you can use these experiences to your advantage. They allow you a totally clean slate. Dont look at it as seeing things as worthless, futile. Look at it as seeing things the way they are. In truth the world is a very dangerous, scary place where we make up beliefs and meanings to comfort ourselves. If we didnt have the urge to eat, ripping apart another animals flesh would seem very gross. If we didnt have religion and its afterlife beliefs many people would be worrying about death, not fear but paranoia.

You have to be careful that you dont get anxious. These questions can lead to you unravelling yourself. Staying calm is key. So is a open mind. You must know that no matter what thought you have, you are still here. Try to stop yourself when you get anxious. Clear the clutter as best you can, and listen to yourself breathing. Nothing else. Feel the air go in, and out. Dont focus on it, perceive it. Let the sound, feeling, fill you.

You can use your perception as a starting point to revealations about yourself and the world. How has this perception of yours effected your emotions? It sounds like a analytical, reasoning perception to me. The only thing you have to be careful of is not to let it spread so far it consumes your emotions. Where you think more and feel less.

If it is just a perception, and trickling down to your emotions not taking their place. Automatic bad feelings are not healthy. Overwhelming anxiety isnt either. There are ways to eliminate these things though.
I think you are in a good place to find something good in your life. You see with such a high end state of awareness. It is going to ellicit just as strong feelings and thoughts from other parts of your mind. If you are fearful it can be easy to become paranoid. If you are sad it can be easy to be depressed. That perception will speed all these other things along.

Find the emotional things that you can identify with that are good. If this is hard, try the breating exercise. Find the good feeling, thought, or anything in between. Maybe you have a favorite place? A person you are close to. A hobby. Search yourself, if theres nothing now, maybe there was something in the past. Go there, and experience nothing but what that positive place gives you. Take comfort in knowing it is there, and will always be there.

If nothing is important why worry? Why think about it? Use the very mechanism which causes you anxiety to take the anxiety apart. Realizing how futile you are, how everything is, can be a first step to a calmer mind.

There can be alot of cracks and crevices in the heart, anxiety makes us run along and fall face first in all of them. Theres also alot of strong light. When you relax and open your mind, all the sudden you arent running anymore. Youre at the source of the light.

The whole 'whats it mean' thing is not a question to be answered. It is a iniatilizer. It starts your mind on a path. We could figure out everything that has to do with reality, and you know what? We would have to move up to the next dimension, if we didnt want to be bored. As we figure out and conquer the next, we are again at a point of no challenges, no growth, no learning. So we have to move up. I look at space in this sense as infinite. There is always something higher up. To be perfect, to know everything is a finite state. Imagine being 2 dimensional, you know the extents of your lines. Your flat nature, but there is nothing beyond that. You know it all but are stuck. I dont believe that we can know it all. I take comfort in that there are things beyond my perception. That I dont have to contain reality itself in a cognative thought. I am here, right in the middle of this universe, this life.

We too often strive to figure it all out and run over our own and other peoples beliefs, well being in the process. Ive given up on trying to figure it all out long ago. The human need to put a descriptor on everything is very 1 dimensional. "these people are like this" "this act makes you like this" The whole questioning the importance of things is a 1 dimensional way to look at things to. Its why it can be so strong. All your perception is filtered through that one ideal, that everything is not important. It can be a hinderance if bad thoughts and feelings stem from it. Hard to get rid of because its like a big root, everything grows from it. Yet, its not a need. The need to figure it all out, to have a way to explain everything is not as strong as the need to identify your beliefs. What you perceive as right and wrong. What you think of certain people in your life. By having that free form perception, using it as a catalyst, you break free of the almost instinctive need to judge and control everything.

Doesnt it seem bad to look at everything as not important? Well what about religous types that think a certain group of people shouldnt be treated as humans. Or people who do something that they dont like. Using heated words, just words to define entire groups even races of people. Its the same with politics. Im glad im not an arab. Ive got nothing against them, but man they are turning into the image of every americans enemy.

So we call these people things and make policies. Its all good right? Wrong. These people are not words, and the things we do to them are not policies, not laws. Essentially what we do to people we dont like or understand is either write them off, or constrain them through our meat grinder belief system. Tearing away everything we dont like. Yuck. Thats not a nice image.

We are to good at being indifferent to others. We can use cell phones but still kick around others, huh?

What im getting to is, that need to figure it all out, to control everything with religion or science. Its great, it can lead to exploration and discoveries that benefit everybody. Its very powerful though, and you can cause alot of harm when blindly engaged in these pursuits. The more control you have the easier it is to be indifferent, the less objective you will be. Human beings dont self regulate when in those positions because theres no reason to.

Having a strong questioning experience in your life is a good thing. If you can find a way to get by the depression. To find something good to hold onto. You are alot better off than most people. I would like to tell you that this whole thing will help you love yourself, and others. I would like to tell you this, but what you do, its at your whim. Maybe youll have another experience, and youll see meaning in everything. Everything will be important. Maybe everything ive said is totally on the opposite side of the spectrum from where you will be. I suspect you will find the those things though. What countless of others have when theyve gone down a similar road. Theyre there.

Hi jive, welcome to the forum!

Thank you for your thoughtful post on the way through our so convincing thoughts! I hope you will continue to post here.

Kathleen