anybody else do this?

This is so true - when I'm depressed I feel exactly the same way - I almost seem to enjoy wallowing in it, although that can't be true because it is horrible to feel that way. I have no idea why I feel that way. I'm no expert, but I suppose it must be part of the "faulty" thinking that my psychiatrist goes on about. It certainly seemed to be the biggest stumbling block for me to getting better, and it was only once I actually wanted to get better that I started seeing some imrovement (being determined to get out of hospital helped with that one!)

it could be as simple as self-sabotage- either consciously or subconsciously we feel that we deserve to feel that way. or it's a defense mechanism against life- it's like i don't have to go out and face fears and anxieties while i'm depressed because i'm depressed. i've wondered if the depressiopn is something i've come to identify with, maybe i've allowed it to become too much a part of who i think i am. and i think you're right about the faulty thinking. it's a bit of a conundrum to change one's thinking with one's own mind, don't you think? but nevertheless possible...i hope.
thank you for your reply.

it's a bit of a conundrum to change one's thinking with one's own mind, don't you think?

Totally - I went to about 20 session of CBT and found it very difficult - mainly because the aim seemed to be to "trick" your own mind into thinking differently about things - to me, this was like trying to tickle yourself - it just doesn't work because you know what's happening (if you understand what I mean!)

Not sure about the defence mechanism thing though - my anxieties seem to increase with the depression - it's certainly not a way of avoiding them for me anyway. Self-sabotage seems more likely - this links in with suicidal thoughts, which for me can at times be quite intense and are very hard to fight against when there is a strong feeling that it is "deserved". Strange thought that, because I would never think that anyone else deserved to die, whatever they had done.

that's good- trying to tickle yourself, i know exactly what you mean!

i don't know if my anxieties increase with depression or if depression increases with anxiety... a little of both i guess. i'm just more able to avoid the things that cause the anxieties because my depression is so immobilizing so i guess that would be an incentive to want to remain depressed.

and it's true, like you said, i would never hurt anyone else, but myself...? i find it disturbing that i'm totally non-violent in my beliefs but that i could become violent towards myself.

maybe i'll do some research on CBT (can't afford a psychiatrist). i'm not in a depression right now but i know it will, as it always does, come back. i'm trying to set up a sort of defense against it so maybe i'll be better able to deal with it the next time around. "talking" to you about this has been a big help. thank you

This might sound like a horrid thing for me to say, but what a nice read I found this to be, I hope I don't sound evil here, its not nice because you two have been in pain, but, I can totally relate to this not wanting to get help thing.

I don't know if I'm depressed, maybe I'm just sad, right now its not too bad, to be honest, so i can think clearly, I think. And I mostly don't want help, I just want to die, and I seriously do feel as if I deserve it! To be honest, I do actually know I do, but thats another matter entirely. Point is, I actually get angry when my friend is self-deprecating, and I feel exactly the same about hurting others, and I don't even believe in evil, or people deserving punishment, except myself. Its really weird to be honest.

As for this tickling yourself thought, what a great way of putting it, I were thinking along very similiar lines just a few days ago, having read the depression learning path, I couldn't find any ways to help myself, because I'd know what I was doing, if that makes any sense.

It all feels a bit hopeless right now, but, thanks for the thread .

Egor, in terms of feeling that you "deserve" to die, this idea really helped me: try thinking of someone else that you think "deserves" to die (I found this one pretty difficult, as I don't really think that anyone (apart from myself at times!) deserves to die, but Hitler is a good example). Are you really as bad as that person? The overwhelming likelihood is that you are NOT as bad as that person. In fact, there are probably loads and loads of people out there who have done much worse things than you. Why should you be the one who deserves to die?

By the way, I have trouble with a few of these ideas myself. For example, I don't really believe that people are "bad", just that they sometimes do things that are bad. But anyway, I hope it helps in showing that you really do NOT deserve to die, WHATEVER you might have done. I know the feeling of wanting to die can be overwhelming (I've been there) but it's worth fighting against, even if its only for the benefit of the people who love you.

Take care.

I'd like to add a comment to that.

It's worth remembering that the thought that "I deserve to die" is a thought. It's not a truth, or a prediction. It's just a thought. The fact that you are thinking it doesn't make it true. And thinking it doesn't make you a bad person, either. Thoughts are spontaneous, and in bad times when you are feeling low, your brain is likely to generate lots of gloomy thoughts. They are still all just thoughts.

So that maybe something that you can hold onto when the suicidal blues come on. They are just thoughts. You don't have to believe them. Or act on them. You can just recognise them for what they are.

Hope that thought helps!

Kathleen

Hi guys and dolls, I have been dealing with depression for many, many years now and I think the Cognitive Behavioral Therapy makes the most sense for me. I fought using drugs for years and finally agreed to try some. After years of bad side effects we did finally find some that did help. But I have always felt that my depression was like a habit. My habit started at about age ten. As an adult the patterns of that habit were very familiar. I think that is why we tend to hang onto it - it is painful, but less frightening than the unknown.

Most people who smoke know it is bad for their health, but it is a familiar behavior that gives some level of comfort - it is familiar. Most people who drink to excess know it is bad for their health, but it offers a temporary relief - it is familiar to them. So, we continue the easy road that is familiar, even though painful. The fear of the unknown (tryng something different) is too .... what? Risky? Scary? Unfamiliar? Uncomfortable?

I did not find the techniques in CBT a trick at all. At first the techniques were very frustating for me. It was difficult to find evidence that did not support my negative thoughts. I did not think they were working or helping. After several weeks I began to see that I was beginning to think more normally, especially in "bad" situations. A bad situation would be like a small fender bender accident, I failed a qualifying test, I missed a deadline, I forgot someone's birthday, or worse - someone's name, etc. These things are not catastrophic, but while in depression any one of them would send me striaght to suicidal thinking. "I do not deserve to live, I do not want to live, and everyone would be better off if I were gone."

Using the CBT thought guide, I began to think in more realistic ways rather than in my old, habitual, negative, suicidal rut. That is what depression feels like to me now - a rut. A negative way of thinking that I have practiced for over forty years now, a very deeply engraved rut in my brain.

The teniques are simple, but not easy at first. I found them very helpful.

I wish you all the best with your fight with depression, lessons about deprssion, and your dealing with depression. Life is short enough, I think we all deserve to be content with ourselves. Live while you are living - death will come on its own soon enough.

Love to all,

Pollyanna

Hi Pollyanna

I agree that the ideas of CBT make a lot of sense, and some of the ideas have been helpful to me. But I think I was just too depressed to engage in it properly when I tried it - in the end, my psychiatrist recognised that and we gave up on it. I wish it had helped me more though, because I think that you're right about habitual negative thinking being the root cause of depression. I haven't managed to change much of my thinking patterns; they just don't have the same sort of hold on me when I'm taking the anti-depressants. Not sure if this means I'm stuck with taking the drugs for life. If so, I think CBT might be worth trying again!

I still think that CBT involves "tricking" your mind into thinking a different way - once you've mastered the trick, you've changed your habit and that's why it works. The problem arises if you can't get away from viewing it as a "trick". And unfortunately, I think depression inherantly makes you more disbelieving that there is any way you can change yourself or get better.

Sorry for rambling, hope some of this makes sense.

Hi claire, some may call me evil here, but I honestly don't even think hitler deserved to die, nor any of his henchmen and henchwomen.

Its very hard right now, because I honestly do believe I am worse than hitler, at least socially, anyway, hitler was messed in the head, probably very insecure, I don't know I'm not a psychologist, but me, I honestly believe that I am horrible, horribly boring and stupid and an ugly person. I'm not even sure if it is worth fighting against, one person says they love me, and they are the only possible person who could , but now I'm just whining, so I'll keep quiet.

Kathleen, for me, at least, that helps, pity I rarely think logically , but, thanks .

I think you will find Egor that Hitler was a psychopath - he could not identify emotionally with the suffering of others.

Egor, I do not think you are evil for thinking that even Hitler deserved to live. I have known a lot of Germans who survived that awful ordeal and have shared some interesting talks about this point. At least Hitler was doing what he thought was the right thing to do to better the world. No matter how much I disagree with it, I give him credit for that and creating such a huge devestating killing machine. Whew I am glad I did not have to live then or there.

I have also had discussions recently about the situation with the terrorists - who are passionately fighting for what they believe in. I can admire the passion they have. I cannot condone the way they go about sharing it with the world. In other words, LIVE YOUR PASSION, BUT ALLOW ME MINE!

***** ENOUGH ABOUT THAT *****

I fought taking medication of any kind for soooo long, then tried many drugs that made life more miserable before finding some that helped. I even had doctors who recommended shock therapy. I would never agree to that. I have been on medication for depression for a long time now and it has helped. I only recently dicovered Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. For me it is the combination of both that seems best - at least for now.

What if the real "TRICK" was years ago when you first started using depression as a survival technique? Maybe you came into this world all whole and healthy and already thought in the "more realistic ways" that CBT is trying to bring us to. Then some time during your life things happened that hurt you and you learned this "TRICK" that kept you safe and comfortable. As time went on maybe the "TRICK" kept growing until you began to take it for granted. I can remember as young as ten or eleven that I thought everyone thought about suicide. It wasn't until I was seventeen or eighteen that I discovered they don't. By then My negative thinking was so deeply set, I did not know any other way to think.

Just what if?

I wish you all the best with whatever path you take to deal with, fight off, rethink, medicate, or whatever you do to deal with your depression. I honestly believe YOU are YOUR BEST THERAPIST! Deep down inside you know what you need and what will help you the most. Whatever the case just keep trying.

Best to all,

Paula

RogerE wrote:I think you will find Egor that Hitler was a psychopath - he could not identify emotionally with the suffering of others.

Really? Its just that I always got the impression of him that he actually enjoyed jews and gypsies and others suffering, I mean, surely he at least felt anger? Do psychopaths feel anger? Psuedo anger? I always got the feeling that he and many germans were quite angry because of the first world war and I guess I can see how many came to the conclusion that jewish people in germany were the root of many problems, although it seems too crazy a thought for even a few to believe in, for me, anyway. I guess I've always wondered what drove hitler and his henchmen to have such crazy ideas . Maybe I don't know much about adolf (first name terms now...), but, anyhoo, thanks for the verdict .

And, woah, pollyanna, good lordy, those thoughts are way too similiar to mine, and you're too good to be another of my personalities . The thinking of suicide from age 11, I'd say I started thinking of suicide from 8ish, but its very hard to tell, my memories don't match up with years, so it may be more like 10. I honestly hadn't considered that other people might not think of suicide all the time, or at least half the time, I'm not sure if I can agree with you on that one though, I know I tend not to talk to people about wanting to die, but it seems like such an obvious thought, I'd be suprised if people didn't even have casual thoughts about it each day, although maybe I missunderstood what you were saying .

Anyhoo, I'm being boring and all whiney and the like.

You people are so nice, I honestly don't deserve to have found this place.

Egor, you did find this place. You deserve it. When the student is ready, the TEACHER will arrive. You are ready..... There are some very intelligent people giving very sound and caring advice on this site. You deserve it.

Ideas are interesting and fun to explore. I like to try to see things the way other people do. I do not have to agree with them to explore them.

I do honestly think most people do not think about suicide - at all! Most people are too involved with living, work, family, hobbies, etc., not thinking about solving problems to stay alive but thinking of how to make their lives better.

I'll bet you are very introspective. That is good. Just don't be so hard on yourself. If you have made some mistakes in the past, forgive yourself for them and learn from them. If there is cause for restitution, do it and move on.

I am glad that you have a place to whine. I think expressing what you feel and think is very important. It feels to me like you need to get rid of some bad thinking that you have been holding onto for a long time maybe because it was not sociablly acceptable to express it.

Please! Excuse me. I am prying and it is none of my business. I always look forward to read what you have to say. I do not have to agree with it. And same the other way around. I donot expect everyone to agree with me and the way I think.