Against optimism

Lexicon! Welcome to the forums - it's good to see you here and a fitting first post from a confirmed realist

OK, meaty discussion time... I've gone back and read my article on optimism again to refresh my memory.

OK, first up:

I notice Roger’s piece on optimism skates over the existence of a middle ground called realism due to some philosophical details. Well, assuming it’s there is just more useful Roger, than branding anyone who disagrees with you a pessimist.

From the article:
"People tend to see themselves as either 'an optimist' or 'a pessimist', and these two extremes leave no room for anything in between."

I'm not sure where your disagreement lies here Alex - I meant by this sentence that the words simplify the issue too much. And I certainly don't brand people who don't agree with me as pessimists, in fact I myself am extremely pessimistic in certain situations, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not (but I'm working on it )

My gripe with optimism is that optimists can be a real pain for us realists to deal with.

Well, I guess here it comes down to how optimistic your optimist is being at the time, and how good their social skills are. Oh, and while I'm at it, everyone needs a break from reality now and then. As someone brainy once said "If a man tries too hard to be rational, irrationality will always break out somewhere".

Taking credit for positive outcomes and attributing negative outcomes to external causes is a consistent feature of misleading shareholders reports, politician speeches and some unpopular people.

Definitely, not to mention financial ruin, drunk driving and megalomania. This is why I think flexibility is the most important thing. Of course, even talking about optimism and pessisim is polarising the real situation almost to the point of nonsense anyway. I wrote that article in a fit of excitement. Can't you tell by the black and white style?

My style is naturally optimistic, but I do not use that style when dealing with finances, both personal and business, when assessing potential business partners, and in various other specific areas of life. But of course, a lot of people do this, the only reason that I am aware of doing it is because I am interested in it.

I think it is important to be realistic, and even pessimistic when assessing a new business venture, and then, once the decision to progress is made, unrelentingly optimistic until it is complete. That way, things get finished.

Overestimating the actual level of control and ignoring the role of luck is another consistent feature in business and politics. We’ve met people who see themselves as prudent and determined agents who are in fact lucky optimists. A realist would be more likely to perceive the correct balance of attribution more accurately more of the time.

Indeed it is a consistent feature in entrepeneurial business anyway. The point is, it is the optimism that creates success, even if unlikely. The current series on BBC TV is showing repeatedly how optimistic entrepeneurs persevere even when times get tough.

BUT! The last program showed how business owners with one big success became too optimistic about their abilities and blew a lot of money.

In the Timberlawn analysis of ‘extraordinary mentally healthy’ people, one trait that emerged as healthiest was being realistic, seeing the world as it is, or being down-to-earth.

I don't know this piece of research (although I would love to see it), but this I agree with wholeheartedly. As I think I have written elsewhere on the forum, the phrase of Erickson's that sticks with me more than anything else I have read is the one that goes something like, "The happiest people are the ones who can see the way the world works and adapt to it the quickest".

Of course realism is the best way, otherwise man's ultimate quest would not be for Truth, but along the way, I think that highlighting what is mentally healthy in terms of avoiding depression and anxiety anyway, is important.

If you’re realistic you’ll want things that you have a good chance of achieving and you can see clearly how to go about getting them.

And if you're optimistic you'll achieve things that most realists would say was highly unlikely.

If you’re realistic you can perceive how much power you have in a situation without the problems that come with either overestimating or underestimating that power.

Definitely.

If you’re realistic you have a head start at perceiving your own and other people emotions.

Agreed, if you yourself are calm and capable of being realistic about this sort of thing. But if not, which is best, too much suspicion or too much trust?

As

a mother was overheard outside a school “they’re all above average, aren’t they?”. Well no they’re not.

Heh, heh

Once a decision has been made then enthusiasm is needed for action, and that means optimism, but what about the decision making process?

Oh, exactly what I said above, seems like we're still violently agreeing.

How do you like the new Scottish Parliament building Roger? Useful isn't it?

What are you talking about Alex? Useful it may be, eventually, but at the moment the active adjective is expensive.

I guess if you're point is that the article is too simplistic, then yes, I reckon guilty as charged, but it's kinda fun I reckon, and up until now, no-one has taken it personally

Well that has blown the dust off the old neurons, great to have you on board Alex, I look forward to more...

Best

Roger

P.S. Do you happen to have an online, or print reference for that 'Timberlawn analysis'?

Hi lexicon great to have you on the forum I think your thread title 'Against Optimism' shows a very optimistic stance. It might be a difficult force to stamp out

Mark

When I'm thirsty the glass is half empty

When I'm not thirsty, the glass is half full.

I think that optimism v pessismism is context specific. I did a test (Roger can no doubt provide the book link) which identified me as pessismistic about good situations and optimistic about bad situations. Does that mean I'm confused - maybe - but it says to me that I have the flexibility to be both optimistic and pessimistic at the same time.

So am I for or against optimism? I am reminded of the (probably a misquote) by Shakespeare "nothing is either good or bad, only thinking makes it so." I really don't think it matter's if you are an optimist or a pessimist as long as your thinking style is appropriate to the situation you are in and enables you to make your way in the world.

Lyndsay

Wow, what a considered response. I suppose it is always a surprise when someone actually reads what ones has written.

I think trying to stamp out optimism would be doomed, wrongheaded and foolish, like trying to stamp out religion, but the thought of all those optimistic people out there somehow fills me with gloom.

I think I'm optimistic about personal outcomes but pessimistic about the world, if you're not then are you sure you've been paying attention?.

And as for religion why shouldn't people have an imaginary friend that forgives them? (lots of reasons, could be a new thread).

"The happiest people are the ones who can see the way the world works and adapt to it the quickest" - that could also be a good definition of intelligence, except willingness to adapt declines with age.

Timberlawn summaries:
No Single Thread, J. Lewis et al. 1976
Successful Families, R. Beavers. 1990

I haven’t read either of them but apparently the first read is fairly sick making as they are all so perfect. Plus it’s from Texas so it’s bound to be a bit strange.

Did I detect a faint whiff of Texanism?

I don't know where you are, Lexicon, but this morning in UK I listened to Desert Island Disks on Radio 4, and the castaway was Bill Cullen, successful Irish businessman who rose from the Dublin slums with the unremitting optimism of his mum and gran behind him (didn't really mention his Dad!). It was certainly plain from his account that optimism by itself, though it helped in the hard times, was not enough. What helped was definitely seeing the way the world was, and adapting to it. A classic example!

(My hubbie would gladly lend you a shotgun (if he had one!) to do in all those optimists!)

Kathleen

PS Surely you read EVERY WORD on this site with full attention? And so do all of us!

Maybe thoughts are creative? If so optimism will surely bring about more of 'what you want'.

>>So am I for or against optimism? I am reminded of the (probably a misquote) by Shakespeare "nothing is either good or bad, only thinking makes it so."<<
So does that mean we can bring back smallpox?

Whiff of Texanism?
Wish me luck, i'm off to Texas tomorrow (involuntary), ok i'll keep my mouth shut, but they're probably nicer than those California people

over and out for a bit.

Is the idea of 'realism' being confused with the idea of basing decisions on the known facts (or, where they're not available, the most likely probabilities)? That's something that is, of course, unarguably sensible.

In my experience, however, so-called 'realists' are people who can always think of a reason why something can't be done. I'm sure someone like Richard Branson, for example, has met plenty of 'realists' in his time - and ignored them all. The history books are filled with the exploits of those who have achieved 'unrealistic' goals. Of course, only 'unrealistic' in the minds of those who have established lower levels of 'realism'.

I totally disagree with the idea that 'realism' is the "middle ground" between optimism and pessimism.

This is my personal definition of an optimist and a pessimist (which, you'll notice, has no room for the concept of 'realism'):

An optimist is someone who expects that whatever happens next will make whatever situation they are in BETTER than it is now.

A pessimist is someone who expects that whatever happens next will make whatever situation they are in WORSE than it is now.

The intrinsic quality of what happens next and of the present situation is irrelevant.

That's my ten cents' worth on this topic, anyway.

Bob