A theroy by Georg Cantor might have ruined my life.

#15

Postby JuliusFawcett » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:26 am

The fact is that humans can only experience the world through their senses. Imagine if you had the ears of a bat, the tongue of a snake, the eyes of an eagle, the nose of a dog, the skin of a sensitive skinned creature :) , you would experience the universe in a massively different way, what if you were then to evolve even more amazing sensory attributes the universe would be completely different again for you.

There is the thought that the universe will go on forever, that there could be multiverses, the possibilities of everything are infinite, you father could have a more open mind. He was trying his best, it's all good.

We only ever live in this moment, learn how to enjoy this moment for what it is and we can be consistently happy forever.
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#16

Postby Tailspin » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:12 pm

Freudian wrote:If you still have your doubts about the falsity of the theory in relation to reality, do you mind clarifying to us where these doubts lay?
.


I'd like to but I can't.

Personally I find this situation a bit ironic as most people struggle with believing in things not disbelieving them.
You've given me some good advice and I know I should be feeling a sense of relief and optimism, finally able to put this behind me but I simply don't feel it and I don't know why.

What's more I don't think I can say with confidence that man's imagination is limitless. I used to believe that but I'm not so sure any more.

Also Freudian, you say that human imagination is boundless but not finite. What exactly is the difference?

Qquietvoice, what is this quote from Ayn Rand about? I've always thought of imagination has the ability to envision something different than what already exists.
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#17

Postby JuliusFawcett » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:13 am

All that you would really like is to feel happy in this moment, the barriers to that happiness are the thought patterns to do with fear, anger, jealousy, blame, guilt, tension, stress, sorrow, frustration, resentment, irritation, criticism and we can let those negative thought patterns go and allow happiness to flow more freely in our lives.
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#18

Postby Flimsy » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:41 pm

Tailspin wrote:I warn you right now that this particular post might sound completely bizarre. People have told me that I'm being silly, I'm worrying over nothing don't seem to be able to understand my situation at how many times I explained to them. And maybe this is the best place for talkie about this particular problem but I can't think of a better one.

All my life creativity has been my passion, especially storytelling. My life's ambition is to be an author.
One day about seven years ago, my father was driving me home and he told me something he thought I would find interesting but it to me it was the most horrific thing I'd ever heard.

He explained to me this theory, apparently based on the work by Georg Cantor, that there is an immensely large but finite number of possible different books that can be written, because all books are made out of combinations of letters and words on a page so there must be a finite number of possible books that can be written.
If you could only put one letter in a book you would have a maximum 26 different possible books. And the way things are is simply a much larger scale of this statement.

I was crushed.

At first I desperately tried to challenge this theory but I'm not a scientist or a mathematician and by what relatively little I do know it seemed airtight. I sank into a deep depression, I avoided any thing to do with creativity and ended up spending countless hours slumped in a chair playing solitaire on my computer. As far as I was concerned my life was ruined forever and if I had to fight to stay alive I don't know if I would have bothered.
For me, writing meant a world of infinite possibilities, freedom from all constraints of reality and creating something that only you could create. My father's theory took all that away from me and such sucked all the happiness out of my life. To me, the theory says that everything I could ever come up with is simply part of a pre-existing set of possibilities and eventually no one will be able to write anything without it being an exact copy of something else and everything I do write will bring into little closer to that time. People keep telling me that this event is theoretically billions of years into the future but that makes no difference to me because it means the freedom and infinite possibilities of creativity is a lie and I can't be a writer with this lie hanging over me.

Yes I know the creative possibilities of man and infinite but in this case it doesn't matter because human language is not infinite. It doesn't matter if we keep coming up with new ideas and concepts if we have no means left to express them.

Eventually I drifted out of it, though I don't know how. I never came to terms with it, never found a way to challenge it or had some kind of epiphany. But a few days ago I had a relapse.
I don't have anyone to talk to about this situation.
My father is a fanatical believer in this theory, he hasn't the slightest flicker of doubt about it, won't even consider the possibility that it is just a theory. To him it is up there with gravity and the laws of thermodynamics. He keeps telling me how I can live with the theory but I find that unacceptable. He believes that creativity isn't about creating anything but rather finding gems that already exist.

My mother is no help either, she simply doesn't understand the theory of matter how many times I explain it to her. It's like it just goes in one ear and out the other. And I cannot begin to describe to you the frustration and rage I've been feeling trying to get them both to understand how I feel and why I feel it and getting nowhere.

my therapist isn't helping me much so far either, he said that he had never encountered anyone with this problem and that made me feel isolated and alone.

What I need to get over this is to know that certain that this theory is not true. I know that's a huge demand but that's what I need. I know this isn't the sort of place for discussing mathematical theories but I can't think of anywhere else to go. Unless you know of a forum where you can discuss theoretical theory is that make you very depressed.
Please don't tell me how I should live with it because I find this just too appalling. If this theory is true then I cannot be a writer and if I cannot be a writer I will be miserable for the rest of my life.


The embrace of the dark is gentle. Let it absorb your sorrows, forever.
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#19

Postby quietvoice » Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:07 pm

what is this quote from Ayn Rand about? I've always thought of imagination has the ability to envision something different than what already exists.

Different than what already exists, yes. Yet, the creation envisioned is a rearrangement of the elements of reality.

I wonder, can the imagination create a new natural element, and bring it into existence? (A letter of the alphabet is not a natural element. More letters can easily be created, as needed.)
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#20

Postby Freudian » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:51 pm

What's more I don't think I can say with confidence that man's imagination is limitless. I used to believe that but I'm not so sure any more.


So do you believe that humanity will some day run out of ideas?

Also Freudian, you say that human imagination is boundless but not finite. What exactly is the difference?


Well, I believe it's indefinite, that is, we can continue creating new things until we're gone. Does human imagination seem finite to you in the same way that a bag of biscuits is finite? Or a collection of bacteria? Human imagination is, to me, something which is constantly influx. It's an enormous space which doesn't seem to me to have an end. Can finite things be boundless? Of course, when I mention 'human imagination,' I don't necessarily mean 'human knowledge.' I think the difference is that human imagination is an action rather than something set in place at any moment.
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#21

Postby Tailspin » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:21 pm

There has been no new development today but not a positive one.

Today I went to visit my therapist and at one point he had me on the brink of letting go of this theory. Of disbelieving it and putting it behind me.

Until he mentioned that there is no proof that it is true but there is also no proof that is untrue. This has left me feeling that I'm going to be stuck in limbo between the two.

Because I am very analytical and only believe in something if there is a decent amount of evidence to back up a belief, he asked me to do an exercise I got home. To make a list of points that argue for and against this theory. As I was doing that I thought about this other theory that says that there are only so many ways that you can arrange molecules, atoms and matter in any given space therefore the possibilities of absolutely everything is finite and limited.
If this is true then all forms of art, no matter what they are must have a finite limitation on the possibilities no matter how advanced technology becomes.

I've been watching one of my favourite animated TV shows today but I couldn't help thinking about how the appearance of the characters was always part of a predetermined set that can never be expanded upon. How eventually no one will be able to draw anything without it looking exactly like someone else's work.

I truly believe it is unfair to ask me to live in a reality with these conditions. Because I never agreed to these conditions, I never agreed to be born.
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#22

Postby Freudian » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:58 am

As I was doing that I thought about this other theory that says that there are only so many ways that you can arrange molecules, atoms and matter in any given space therefore the possibilities of absolutely everything is finite and limited.


'Absolutely everything'? Are you about to claim that human imagination consists of 'molecules, atoms and matter'?

If this is true then all forms of art, no matter what they are must have a finite limitation on the possibilities no matter how advanced technology becomes.


If 'all forms of art' consisted of the same amount of 'moles, atoms and matter,' then perhaps you'd be right. Does 'all forms of art' consist of the same amount of 'moles, atoms and matter'?

how the appearance of the characters was always part of a predetermined set that can never be expanded upon.


What do you mean?

How eventually no one will be able to draw anything without it looking exactly like someone else's work.


It hasn't happened yet. At least not 'subconsciously.' There are forgeries of art created by master forgers, and there are works which were inspired by previous works, evoking a sense of familiarity amongst art enthusiasts because of how similar some aspects of the portraits are. Then again, I'm not one of those 'art enthusiasts,' and you might be right. I'd be very impressed if an example can be cited where, by accident or coincident, the work of one artist is exactly the same as the work of another artist.

I truly believe it is unfair to ask me to live in a reality with these conditions. Because I never agreed to these conditions, I never agreed to be born.


There has been countless men who achieved extraordinary things within 'these conditions.' I'm sure you, I and everybody else would count themselves satisfied if we were able to achieve at least half of what they achieved. And yet I don't think those great men has ever made the same complaints as you've made.
Luckily for us, with every move humans make towards a new civilisation and the creation of new knowledge, it leads to the inevitable consequence of new problems and mistakes to be solved, amended or adapted, and some genius to suddenly pass us by to make all the connections and elegantly combine a variety of perspectives and ideas, and enlighten the rest of us with new knowledge and understanding, and another new civilisation - and thereon the cycle continues.

You still haven't answered my question: do you think humanity will cease to create new ideas? And i would prefer it if you provide me a straight answer.
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#23

Postby Tailspin » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:27 am

Freudian wrote:You still haven't answered my question: do you think humanity will cease to create new ideas? And i would prefer it if you provide me a straight answer.


I really hate it when you ask me that question, for two reasons:

1, I can't answer it. In the Halcion days before my father told me this theory there was no doubt in my mind that people would never run out new ideas but now I'm not so sure.

2, it sounds to me like you're completely missing the point and that you just don't get this theory at all. And that leaves me with feelings of despair and frustration.

The problem is not with the imagination of mankind, but with the limitations of the physical world. Even if man's imagination does turn out to be boundless the theory states that the possibilities of the physical world are not.

When all this started I went to my mother for comforting like I always do. But she could not help me in the slightest because she just didn't understand the theory at all. I tried to explain it to her that no matter how I worded it no matter how eloquently and clearly I laid it all out she just didn't get it. It's as if it just went in one ear and out the other and it was painful and frustrating having to explain it over and over again and getting nowhere. That's what I'm starting to feel about you now.

Freudian wrote:
What do you mean?



Wasn't I clear enough? Do I really need to go into this explanation again? The theory goes on to say there are only so many ways that paint, ink and pencil can be arranged on the page so all possibilities can be exhausted. And that's bad because what I loved about creativity was that people could keep coming up with new ideas forever.

Things have really gone downhill for me lately, the other day I was almost over it but then I remembered this theory about all possibilities being finite because there is a limit on the different ways you can arrange matter. I've asked this question on Yahoo Answers and they are all saying the theory is true.

One thing that bothered me most is that I can hardly find anyone who understands how this theory works and why it bothers me. You are one of perhaps two people on the planet that I can actually talk to about this. And if you can't understand then I’ve just about lost all hope
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#24

Postby Freudian » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:55 am

1, I can't answer it. In the Halcion days before my father told me this theory there was no doubt in my mind that people would never run out new ideas but now I'm not so sure.


You did. Now your answer is clear to me, and we can move on. How do you imagine the state and nature of such a world? It would surely be a world which has run out of problems and issues to solve. I imagine it would seem something like a 'perfect' world, from which point humanity will live in an unchanging and constant world for the rest of their existence.

it sounds to me like you're completely missing the point and that you just don't get this theory at all.


I'm sure we'll get there eventually. This is what discussions are for, aren't they?

And that leaves me with feelings of despair and frustration.


Give it time. Be patient. If it doesn't work one way, we'll try another.

The problem is not with the imagination of mankind, but with the limitations of the physical world.


We (or at least i) have been talking about ideas and the limitation of human imagination in the creation of new ideas. This was the result of your raising 'the theory when applied to human language,' during which, to the best of my recollection, you never stated the general theory.

Even if man's imagination does turn out to be boundless the theory states that the possibilities of the physical world are not.


I'm not too sure how the theory applies to the physical world. I've read your idea about 'molecules, atoms and matter,' and if this is 'the theory applied to the physical world,' then I've read about it afterall.

As I was doing that I thought about this other theory that says that there are only so many ways that you can arrange molecules, atoms and matter in any given space therefore the possibilities of absolutely everything is finite and limited.


If this is the same as 'the theory applied to the physical world' - fine.

Even if man's imagination does turn out to be boundless the theory states that the possibilities of the physical world are not.


First of all, you must explain to me how human imagination is 'limited' by the physical world. Describe what it means to be 'outside of human imagination,' or 'outside the limits of the physical world' when it concerns human imagination. It seems to me that human understanding progresses through the application of human imagination, so that if something cannot be contained by human imagination, it is impossible for humans to understand, that it is also outside of human understanding. So what does it mean for something to be 'outside of human understanding'? Isn't it redundant to talk of such a thing?
Also, are emotions 'part of the physical world'? Are ideas really 'part of the physical world'? Is there a clear channel between the human mind and the physical world? Why should i hold it to be self-evident the idea that human imagination, and, indeed, the human experience, is directly influenced by the physical world in this way?

Secondly, does your theory take into account such sometimes surreal ideas within quantum mechanics? There has been at least one kind of split in physics: Newtonian physics and quantum physics (by the way, i am not a physicist, so i am liable to bite off more than i can chew). It was easier to conceive of the idea during the days before the occurrence of quantum physics that some day science will be able to eventually provide a scientific explanation behind every possible physical phenomenon. But once the progression of science took a turn and started dissecting the world (although, i understand that more basic idea existed since the time of democritus...) - from molecules to atoms and to the subatomic, a vision of such eventuality became uncertain . A limit to the physical world? That, it seems, is very far in the horizon indeed.

Wasn't I clear enough?


Apparently not. Not to me anyway.

I tried to explain it to her that no matter how I worded it no matter how eloquently and clearly I laid it all out she just didn't get it. It's as if it just went in one ear and out the other and it was painful and frustrating having to explain it over and over again and getting nowhere. That's what I'm starting to feel about you now.


That's rather unfair. If you look back at our correspondence, i hope you'll find that it deserves a better evaluation than that. We have made some progress, haven't we?
I tried my best, and that is about as much as i can offer.

I've asked this question on Yahoo Answers and they are all saying the theory is true.


There was a time in human history when 'they were all saying' the earth was flat. Continue on your own scrutiny and study full arguments until you're convinced. Don't depend on mere basic judgements, on people simply 'saying the theory is true.'

One thing that bothered me most is that I can hardly find anyone who understands how this theory works and why it bothers me. You are one of perhaps two people on the planet that I can actually talk to about this. And if you can't understand then I’ve just about lost all hope


To continue a theme in this thread, I have my limits. I can tell you, very frankly, that i am an expert in nothing. Nothing whatsoever. Not even close. It's too bad that with millions of far more capable people living on this planet, you chose me to depend upon to be your omniscient beacon of light which you'd hope would shine through the occasional grey mists within your understanding. It's quite abit of pressure. I had never considered myself to be anymore than a contributor to this stimulating discussion. I take it a step at a time (or a post at a time). Your 'pain, frustration and loss of hope' seems to be your own doing.

You should think about spreading out your philosophical correspondence. Have you tried putting your philosophical problems to philosophy forums? I'm sure you can give the members there a lot of fun with your theory. The progress they could make with your theory may well go some way in positively influencing your state of mind.

And that's bad because what I loved about creativity was that people could keep coming up with new ideas forever.


As things are, there seems to be a lot on your plate upon which to apply your creativity. Even if there is a limit, from the position we are all in, the end appears lost beyond the infinite.
Which has immediately reminded me of another point - if we can consider every human to have ever lived and will ever live to be unique, then we have another reason to believe that each book will be written with a unique style and consist of unique content. Any two authors from any period producing books which are exactly the same seems impossible with this analogy in mind.
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#25

Postby quietvoice » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:06 pm

*
Do you expect that the new ideas will run out before you leave this planet; if not, then what is all this worrying about something that you won't experience in this lifetime.

. . . there are only so many ways that paint, ink and pencil can be arranged on the page so all possibilities can be exhausted.

Yes, on that page, that page which appears to be of finite size. Imagine that page to be of infinite size. When will the combinations run out? And what happened to the third dimension? Can you make it into a sculptural page?

Imagine an HTML page. It could be seen as a sculptural page. Not only can the end of the page go on forever, so long as there is enough server capacity, but also every single element on that infinite page can hyperlink to another infinite page.
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#26

Postby Tailspin » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:42 pm

Fruedian, youv'e givan me a very long post and I'm not sure I understand it all. I' not sure which part to answer and as I've mentioned my problem has moved into a different direction.

quietvoice wrote:*
Do you expect that the new ideas will run out before you leave this planet; if not, then what is all this worrying about something that you won't experience in this lifetime.


I know it won't happen with in my lifetime but that means absolutely nothing to me.
Just the other day I was talking to my father about this very subject and he said
“Supposing for the sake of argument it will happen in 2 billion years, would it still upset you?”
And without a moment's pause I said: “Yes!”
To me it doesn't matter in the slightest how incredibly long we've got until we run out of possibilities, it's the fact that they can run out that bothers me.
For as long as I can remember I have always thought of creativity as a realm of infinite and boundless possibilities. But this theory says that is not true.
I had always thought of an artistic creation as something unique that came from the artist. This theory says that everything any artist can ever think of is actually part of a predetermined set of possibilities.

This is my ultimatum.
Either creativity is infinite and boundless and I can get on with my life.
Or creativity is finite and limited and my life is ruined.

There is no third possibility for me.
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#27

Postby quietvoice » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:27 pm

*
Life is a series of experiences.
Surely, you've had the experience of solving a puzzle, of any kind.
During your experience of solving the puzzle, one that you feel motivated to solve, one where the working of it gathers your full attention, it is an enjoyable feeling, isn't it. And the feeling of accomplishment in reaching the end result, the solving of this puzzle, that feels good as well, doesn't it.
And you notice, that although the puzzle had a predetermined end, that although others have solved the puzzle, even in the same way, you still enjoyed the solving of the puzzle, the experience of solving the puzzle. And you find that in this time you spend in solving the puzzle, this enjoyable time, you have learned something, maybe even many things. Learnings you can use to apply to the next puzzle you enjoy, a more advanced puzzle. And you feel good about that, don't you. And you find it matters not that others have solved the same puzzle, as now you OWN that puzzle, it has become a part of your experience. And it feels good, because life is a series of experiences, and you choose to enjoy a series of enjoyable experiences, right up to the end of your life. You find that you can now leave the old thinking behind, because you now have a better way of thinking . . .
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#28

Postby Tailspin » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:08 pm

I appreciate you taking the time but there is no way I can live with this theory. At least not happily.

Also I don't enjoy the solving of a puzzle, I'm always too focused on the goal.
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#29

Postby JuliusFawcett » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:37 pm

The goal is to, moment by moment, choose happiness. Ask yourself "What can I do right now to keep me happy?" and courageously trust your intuition
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